Episode 60: The Expat Toolkit: Singapore Visas: What You Need to Know Part II

Rachel: [00:00:00] Welcome back truly expat listeners This week we have the second part of our Singapore visas what you need to know , if you haven't listened to the first half you'll get more out of this episode if you do So just stop and just go back to episode 59 If you have done that already Listen on have a great week.

Rachel: Thanks

Paula: What is the role of an agency like yours, um, in terms of helping with visas? What can you , so

Jen: particularly if you're a small business and you don't have an internal HR, you know, if you're a startup, um, you'll need an agency to help you apply because, um, It's kind of difficult to navigate the whole system by yourself. Um, yeah, so the agencies can not only help you submit the application, but they can also give you advice on is it likely MOM would [00:01:00] approve this candidate?

Jen: For example, they can help you screen your candidates. They can help you run the self assessment test. Which MOM asks you to do before you submit an application. And it'll basically tell you if the requirements for the candidate and your company are met. So you don't have to waste your time applying if there's just no chance.

Jen: You know, if you're putting in a salary that's too low, they'll tell you, No, this is not going to work. You know, so an employment agent can help you run through all the numbers and run these self assessment tests. Get an idea of whether or not you're going to qualify. So then you don't spend a lot of money on trying to hire somebody, if not.

Jen: And then the other thing that's good about having an employment agent is that they can do appeals for you. And that's one of the places that I you know, my reasons to, to say that I, that I find that I'm quite strong is because I have a background as an attorney in the U. S. And I'm pretty good at looking at what MOM [00:02:00] says in their rejection letter and understanding.

Rachel: They

Jen: They basically tell you, these are the hurdles that we found before. They don't say it like that, but they say, it's a lot more, you know, succinct.

Rachel: You can read, read between the

Jen: Right. You have to kind of read between the lines and say, okay, well they said, um, They don't know enough about your company finances, so let's appeal and, and let's give them a purview into your company finances.

Jen: Like, um, do you have a round of seed funding or something? You know, I've used that before where I've sent them newspaper articles where, where, um, the company did funding rounds. And also, um, maybe they have investments sent directly into their bank accounts. So. If you can show MOM that you have enough money for your company.

Rachel: um,

Jen: In your bank account that you can pay this person that you're about to hire for, you know, six, nine, [00:03:00] 12 months, something like that. Then you help get over the hurdle of, I don't know enough about your company, you know, and then you, you just read the other things they said. Sometimes you can't do anything about it.

Jen: Like. This, this employee is not qualified, you know, or they didn't like the qualifications presented, then there's not much you can do about that. But other things, especially if it has to do with the company finances or, um, the makeup of the company or whatever, you can, um,

Rachel: Um,

Jen: think of ways that you can change the situation or demonstrate to MOM that actually you do meet those requirements.

Jen: And then having somebody that thinks like a lawyer that can say, well, yeah, they said this in particular, but I think if we give them this and this and this also, and then write them a letter where we describe it really well, you know, so they understand the whole package, then that's going to help as well.

Jen: So that's kind of like [00:04:00] My, my shining star.

Rachel: I was just, I was just wondering as well, like, um, so you said that if you, they don't have enough qualifications, do you have to have a college degree to, to get a visa to, to work here? Or can you, is there some way around it, like with work experience?

Jen: you can get around it with work experience.

Jen: And I have had um, clients before that I've helped to get an employment employment pass when they had enough work experience. Like, um, I had one guy who, um, Did not go to college, but he started up his own business, and he had had the business running in Europe for more than 10 years, and he was able to show not only his salary payments, you know, which were higher than the minimum employment pass requirements, you know, but he was also able to show that he had all this experience and, you know, we, we gave M.

Jen: O. M. Um, Because first they rejected him. [00:05:00] But then I appealed and, you know, showed them his CV and his website and um, you know, we turned in the financials for the companies that he had in Europe to show that Um, that he had done it before in Europe and that, um, that company was going to support the company here.

Jen: You know, we had letters from the board and stuff like that. So there's, there's ways to demonstrate to MOM that this person is qualified, even if they don't have standard qualifications.

Paula: Do you work a lot

Rachel: with,

Paula: um,

Rachel: um,

Jen: startups? Yes, mostly with startups, because once a company gets pretty big, then they have their own internal HR, and, um, and once they've done 20 employment passes, then they kind of understand it a lot better.

Jen: And so usually the bigger companies will take, um, take that, yeah, on their own. But for me, um, [00:06:00] most of my clients are startups, and mostly, well, it's partly because, Um, I know a lot about startups because I've worked for a bunch of startups. I worked for startups in the U. S. Um, And then my husband's worked for startups.

Jen: When I met him, he was working at a startup. Ah, okay. Which, which he sold and, um, did some other things. But then he had a startup here in Singapore. Ah, okay. And I, I paid attention to what he was doing. You know, and, and learned a lot about the startup world here.

Rachel: and,

Jen: You know, in the U. S. and I got my law degree from Santa Clara, which is in Silicon Valley.

Jen: I, I was on the computer and high tech law journal when I was in law school and I worked for, um, I interned with a guy when I was in law school who, This was in [00:07:00] the 90s. He, um, no, it was in the 2000s, early 2000s, but he was suing spammers, which was a big deal back then, you know, he was, um, suing people for spam breaches.

Jen: And I learned so much about, you know, technology and stuff. Yes. Yes, you can. He won. He did a great job. Yeah, there's because there were laws in place and people were violating the laws. And so, you know, he, yeah. Anyway, I learned a lot with that, and I learned a lot working, I clerked for a judge in Silicon Valley who's doing commercial law cases, so, yeah, it was interesting.

Jen: How interesting. Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Paula: so you'd know a lot of people in the tech industry, because there's a lot of tech start ups here, isn't there? Yeah. Seems to be, it used to be Hong Kong people tended to go to, but it seems to be here now.

Jen: Yeah, I think the Economic Development Board here is really encouraging, um, the start up culture and they have some incubators here to help get things started and then there's a lot of [00:08:00] VCs here who, um, You know, they have money to invest, and so people are coming here, and some of the startups in Asia are actually, um, pretty amazing, like Grab, for example.

Jen: I know a lot about it, because my husband worked there from a very early point. He started, he got his job offer when Grab hadn't moved to Singapore yet.

Paula: Where's Grab from originally?

Jen: Um, Malaysia. KL. It

Paula: from there. I thought so because I lived in KL when, and I came here just as Grab took over Uber.

Jen: Uber.

Jen: I think Grab bought their Singapore business. Ah. And my husband started working there when there were, I don't know, like 700 people or 700 or 800 people at Grab.

Jen: But they were all in Malaysia. They moved the team over to Singapore because, um, they felt like Singapore was a better environment to Um, launch the business from and then it just grew and, um, it's huge now. And now it's, [00:09:00]now it's traded on the stock exchange, New York stock exchange. Yeah. Grab holdings.

Jen: And, um, they've recently had some really. Good quarters. So it's kind of a hot stock at the moment. Yeah.

Paula: the thing I like about Grab is that you can use it all through Southeast Asia on that one app. Because when it first started, I had to have a Malaysian app. And then I had to have a Singapore app, because I'd moved from KL to here.

Rachel: Oh

Paula: now you can use

Rachel: yeah. Just the same app.

Rachel: Yeah. It just picks up your location, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Jen: go to Vietnam and one of the clever things,

Paula: One of

Jen: one of the clever things they did was they put translation in the chat. So other apps don't have that. So you can't communicate with your driver, but if you use Grab and your driver sends you something in Vietnamese, the app will translate it for you and send it to you in English.

Jen: I'm

Paula: so dumb. I just assumed, I just

Jen: thought they all spoke English? No,

Rachel: they don't. And they didn't talk to you in the car? They [00:10:00] could only talk to you on the app. I thought they were just rude.

Jen: No, but technology's amazing

Rachel: Yeah. No, that's awesome. That totally breaks down so many barriers.

Rachel: Yeah. Especially when you're writing

Paula: when you're writing and stuff.

Rachel: Yeah.

Paula: That's good to know. I mean because um, so getting back to Grab, so your husband worked at Grab, is that what brought you over here?

Jen: The second time. The first time we came here, he was working for PayPal and, um, we were here for two years on a two year contract and then he got sent back to PayPal in Silicon Valley again and he had more of a global role there.

Jen: And then Grab recruited him to come back here. And so they moved us back here. And he worked on the product side of it. Um, his big thing was the payments. So he's the one that worked with them to get, um, [00:11:00] for them to be able to do all this payment wallet stuff that they do. Okay. But

Paula: it's very different to Uber in that respect, right? Because you can do a lot with Grab.

Rachel: Not that

Paula: this whole episode's about Grab, but you can do a lot. You can do a lot with Grab.

Rachel: Um,

Jen: Startup culture.

Paula: Yeah, it's the startup culture here. I

Jen: mean,

Paula: I've met a lot of, uh, young, young expats that have come over here and they've started up their own businesses.

Paula: So that's why I asked you,

Jen: because they're all

Paula: in their, like, early thirties. Gosh, I sound so old, I'm in my early thirties, but they're young and they're, they're, is there

Rachel: look 30.

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. I'm 31

Rachel: actually.

Jen: But anyway. 29 again. Yeah,

Rachel: exactly.

Jen: Every year.

Rachel: Yeah, exactly. There's many years, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paula: Yeah. Many, many, many years ago. But I think there is a big startup kind of culture here, or even if it's not even that it's, it's that generation that is a lot more entrepreneurs coming out.

Paula: And so they're the ones

Rachel: [00:12:00] People want to make their own stamp on the world. They don't want a boss telling them what to do anymore. They kind of want to work their own hours and have that kind of autonomy, you know, where they can, you know, be more creative in their, in their work, maybe.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jen: and I think people are learning from the internet and everywhere else that you can actually be your own boss now and be successful. And they're learning how to raise money on their own and People are just starting younger and younger, and it, they want to do it in Asia too, because Asia is pretty hot.

Jen: Yeah. As far as the startup culture.

Rachel: it's definitely more buoyant than the Western part of the world at the moment, yeah. Um, so can you explain what happens if a foreign worker's employment pass or S pass is issued? Is actually, it's cancelled. Um, and what steps should Employees take next?

. 

Jen: And how long do they have

Paula: until [00:13:00] they have to leave the country?

Jen: Um, it, I think it depends on their nationality. Um,

Rachel: if

Jen: you can come into Singapore on a 90 day visa, usually they'll give you 90 days to Um, wrap your stuff up before you can leave. Um, but I've also seen, seen them be for just 30 days before.

Jen: But I can't remember if those were the older ones. Because they used to only give you 30 days. And now the ones I see tend to be 90 days. But I don't know if that's because of their nationality or not.

Paula: Is that EPs as well? Or

Jen: EPs. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean

Paula: it'd be hard to wrap up your whole life in 30 days.

Jen: Yeah, kids

Rachel: school, finishing terms, you know.

Paula: That's scary.

Jen: Yeah, because your kids can't continue once they've lost their, yeah. They have to, they would have to come back on student visas in order to keep going. So they're, and not all of the [00:14:00] international schools here can support a student visa. And they have limits on how many student visas they can issue.

Rachel: So

Jen: Yeah, if your employment pass and your dependent passes get canceled, you've got 90 days to wrap it up and your kids might get kicked out of school. So you need to contact the school. You need to find out if they have enough student visas, if they can sponsor your kids to stay. And then, if you're on a student visa, the mother can stay, but the father can't.

Paula: Yeah. The father cannot be a guardian,

Jen: dad needs to leave the country and find a job from the outside. Or he can come back in on a tourist visa, you know, for a little while. He can't do that very often, but, you know.

Paula: And so if, if you, if does a child have 30 days to wrap up their schooling or do they, they pretty much cannot go back to school once that visa has been canceled. Um.

Jen: Um,

Rachel: I

Jen: they have 30 days to wrap it up. Once their pass [00:15:00] expires, yeah.

Rachel: Could

Paula: you imagine going to school one day and then the next day, sorry, you can't go to school anymore.

Paula: So it's got to be some sort of leeway, right?

Rachel: don't

Jen: I think it, you get a special pass to stay,

Paula: stay until you can.

Jen: right? And the validity of a special pass is depending on what MOM decides to grant you.

Jen: And most of the ones I've seen lately have been 90 days. Do they change the,

Paula: the, do they change everything to, often?

Paula: MOM?

Jen: Yes,

Paula: you're always having to check?

Rachel: You

Jen: have to look and check because they were only 30 days. I remember when I first got here and I had friends that their passes got canceled and they had 30 days to like get the movers and get everything arranged.

Jen: They could get out of the country and their kids weren't going to be allowed to go to school. But I remember the kids being in school during that time or they were securing. Student visas, like you, gives you just a short amount of time to sort everything out before you have to move on.

Paula: Because even three months is quick. [00:16:00] Like, three months goes so fast,

Rachel: and

Paula: there's so much to do, isn't there? But a month 

Paula: like I've packed up when we moved from, um, Seoul to No, from Tokyo to Seoul, um, my husband rang me when I was, it was summer holidays and said, Oh, guess what?

Paula: We're moving. Uh, when you get back, you've got four weeks to do it. And I'm like, what?

Rachel: So I had

Paula: literally four weeks from the time I

Rachel: landed. And three kids. Yes.

Paula: and he, he moved on like he moved first. So I was on and a dog.

Rachel: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Ha ha ha. That was stressful. On your own, Paula. You'll be

Paula: You'll be fine. You've done

Rachel: it before. Ha ha ha.

Jen: That happened to me too. My husband got the job at Grab. We had three weeks, and it was October. The kids had just started school. I'd just paid all this tuition. Yeah, and then, you know, I had to tell them, oh, we're going back to Singapore.

Jen: They were happy about it. But, oh, that was a stressful three weeks trying to get the movers and everything. Oh. It's because it's a

Paula: of, it's a lot of, [00:17:00] a lot of work. I think people don't realize when you move country, it's not, which I think my husband does, God love him. I think he thinks that, yeah, yeah. Someone else will come in and just get all your stuff.

Rachel: you. And you like, you have to cancel all the contracts, like, you know, telephone bills, like utilities, everything. And then find the, them all again and set it all up again and, and it's, it's really so many different moving parts.

Jen: And I find that my husband always goes ahead and starts the job and leaves me to do all the hard stuff.

Jen: So I started Facebook shaming him. I'm like, look, once again, Joel's at his new job in Singapore. And here I am packing up the house by myself. When

Rachel: were in London. It was really horrible. We had just all of this. stuff and I didn't even know whose it was. It's like,

Paula: is going

Rachel: this is going in the bin if I don't get an answer, like, I've had enough of this.

Paula: had enough of this. Well,

Jen: Well, I tell you the [00:18:00] last two moves, he's shown up every time because he doesn't want to be.

Paula: he

Rachel: Uh, named and

Jen: want the shame anymore. He didn't feel like

Rachel: a bit like the straight Stein when we're COVID. Or maybe

Jen: just didn't realize that

Paula: difficult

Jen: it was so difficult on me when he would do that and he decided to

Paula: I actually think they don't. Look, I'm going to give my husband, although we've moved seven countries, I'm going to give him the better for the doubt and say he doesn't understand how much work goes into moving.

Paula: I feel like this time around, if we move again, it'll be easier. I don't have children here, so it'll be easier. It's still not easy. There's still a lot of stuff to do, but it's that whole trying to find a position in an international school is the most stressful thing because having to homeschool a child is probably the worst

Jen: experience of my life.

Rachel: life.

Paula: I love my children very much, but homeschooling is not me.

Jen: No, not me. Not, not everybody can handle that.

Jen: No. Yeah.

Paula: And the kids don't want to either. No,

Jen: the last person they [00:19:00] want to listen to. Yeah,

Paula: Yeah, exactly.

Rachel: And they want their friends. Yeah. Like, how do you settle into a place if you don't have your tribe?

Rachel: Like, that's, that's key. That's like, finding your friends, finding your path, finding that you fit in somewhere, then you're okay. Yeah. Like, everything else can just be oblivion. Yeah. Yes. Longer shift. Go. Yeah. Mates. Some

Paula: friends, yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jen: At least in Singapore there's a plethora of international schools. Yeah. So,

Paula: And you don't have debentures here, do you?

Paula: Because I mean, in Hong Kong we have debentures, which meant that a company had a certain amount of, um, debentures for a particular school. And if you didn't

Rachel: one What does debenture mean?

Paula: Um, so it was like a, they had, I dunno how much it was. I'm gonna,

Rachel: Like a quota?

Paula: Well, they had to pay a fee to be able to have a place in that school. So, it's like, I don't know, 100, 000, I don't know if it's 100, 000 or something like that. Where, um, so, if they've only got two places, that only [00:20:00] guarantees two families from that company to be able to go to that school.

Rachel: Oh.

Paula: Yeah. And so, that's tricky. Because then you go and end up living near whatever school that child gets into.

Jen: Yeah.

Paula: That's stressful. That is very stressful. And we've,

Jen: and

Paula: I've been through that a couple of times in Hong Kong. So, yeah. They're little things you don't know unless you're about to move to that place, right?

Jen: Right. Yeah. Every place is like

Paula: I don't, they don't have that here though.

Jen: No, they don't have that here, but the international schools only have a certain number of places because they only have a certain number of teachers.

Jen: So. You know, and some of these international schools have wait lists, so you may not get into the place you want. You may get waitlisted for a year.

Rachel: I've

Paula: that. And

Jen: Or more.

Paula: a couple of kids go to different couple of different schools in the interim. Yeah. I had a friend who actually homeschooled her kids, um, for two years.

Jen: Yeah.

Paula: And so I think there is a big homeschool community here in,

Jen: in . Yeah. Yeah.

Paula: But you need that.

Jen: [00:21:00] How, uh,

Rachel: Just to switch gears a little bit, um, have you noticed since you've been here, a change in the type of, um, like startups or people that come here?

Rachel: And are they, are they more singles or couples rather than families? Or have you noticed a trend, um, change?

Jen: Yeah, I, I would say that the startups that I've done most recently have been younger people, um, people in their 30s, um, who have not necessarily had kids or even gotten married yet.

Paula: Yeah.

Jen: And sometimes the people they hire will have a wife, but most often they don't have kids yet.

Jen: Like, you know, it's kind of like a, the startup culture where there's maybe five people working really hard on a problem. They're working. Night and day, they have no time. Exactly. They haven't gotten to the point where they have time for a relationship and everything, you [00:22:00] know. But then once they grow to a certain size, they need more adults in the room.

Jen: And then they start hiring people that have more experience. And then the more experienced people are more likely to have families independent passes. So usually the startups that I work with don't have, um, lots of. Lots of dependent passes in the beginning. And sometimes, um, I've seen MOM give the company a little bit of a hard time with the dependent passes.

Rachel: Like,

Jen: have to explain why this person needs their spouse to come.

Paula: Oh, wow.

Jen: Yeah, even though they were making well above the monthly salary, I've still seen MOM question it. But the company wrote a letter and explained why they were vital and why it was important that their spouse be able to join them while they were here.

Rachel: That's so interesting. I thought that that would be, because they're so pro family, like. Wouldn't that, those children going to international schools be, you [00:23:00] know, like

Paula: Not, not if there's not enough places for the international schools.

Jen: Well, see, there's also this fear with MOM that your company goes under and you've left all of these people here that they have to figure out how to get them back because as a company, you're supposed to, um, you have the responsibility to repatriate your workers if something happens.

Jen: So, you know, if you let them go, you have to repatriate them. You have to give. Their whole family, everybody that was on the dependent pass needs an airline ticket. So if your company actually goes under, then you're not going to have the money to do that.

Paula: And that's if you're on an ep.

Paula: Right. Because if you're on a one pass, they're not eligible. They don't have to send you back unless it's in your contract. I guess.

Jen: That's right.

Rachel: And also you're earning enough money to be able to Be self sufficient.

Jen: Right, and I think that's one of the reasons that they put the limit so high, because if you're earning 30, 000 and you lose your job, [00:24:00] well, chances are you can come up with the money for an airline ticket out of here. But if you're earning 6, 000, can you necessarily come up with your airline ticket and figure out how to move your stuff out of here and all that?

Jen: I don't know. Not necessarily.

Rachel: well, if you're on that, it's difficult to get, even to get into an international school, right? Yeah, yeah. And also, pay the rent, like, yeah, you need It's tough. Yeah. It's crazy. Okay.

Jen: Do you

Paula: have any other things that you think that, um Um, you know, if I was, if I was looking to get a part or a visa, anything that you think would be interesting, not interesting.

Jen: Well, the one thing that we,

Paula: that

Jen: one thing we didn't touch on was dependent pass holders working on a work permit. Which. Oh,

Rachel: please do.

Jen: Yeah. I've all done that. Yeah. So, so we talked about dependent pass [00:25:00] holders working on their own LOC for their own company, but there's another option for companies out there, which is to hire, um, dependent pass holders on a work permit.

Jen: So just like your, um, domestic helpers are on work permits, and your laborers. You know, the gardeners, and they're all on work permits, too. Well, MOM decided to open up work permits also for various nationalities, um, in order to work, you know, as a dependent pass holder. So the limits are not that high. Um, I don't know what the minimum is, but I've seen, you know, people hiring at like 500 a month, you know, for something that's a very part time role, like a couple hours a week.

Jen: Um, the only thing is, just like with an S Pass, the work permit, there's a levy that has to be paid every month, so that's important to stay on top of.

Rachel: How much is [00:26:00] the levy?

Jen: Um, it depends on the salary of your worker and also the sector that MOM considers you to be in. Um, when I hired a DP holder, I was paying 800 a month on top of her salary for the levy.

Rachel: Wow. That's a

Jen: lot. Yeah, it was a lot, so.

Paula: I'm just comparing it to what you pay for a

Rachel: a domestic helper. Yeah. That's a lot. Is there, is there like a demand? For those work passes, like, in the industry, like, you know, are people looking for, I don't know, people to work in the hairdressers, or like, you know.

Paula: a partic

Rachel: particular trait, do you mean?

Rachel: Yeah, that there is a demand for that.

Jen: place I've seen demand, um, and I've actually walked a school through, um, how to do this, is at the international schools. Because they have a need for part time teaching assistants and part time teachers. And, um, To get [00:27:00] S passes, they have to have 10 locals. To get a work permit, the number is lower.

Jen: It's either 1 or 3. And I think after three you can hire another one, and after three you can hire another one. So they might get more quota to hire work permit, permits than they do to hire S passes. So, and then some of the people that they hire, like a part time teacher, might only work once every two weeks, right?

Jen: Substitute teachers, you know, for when people get sick. So they might not meet minimum salary requirements for an S pass also. So there, I've seen a lot of schools hiring people on work permits for this particular reason.

Rachel: Yeah. Any other industry?

Jen: Um,

Paula: Where would you find the information? Like if I wanted to know, um, if, I don't know, if I was employable or someone else was employable, would MOM have something on their website?

Paula: Do you need to talk to

Rachel: This

Paula: find out this information, or is it something I [00:28:00] could come to

Jen: Yeah, I think you need to talk to an agent to find out. Um, the agency can, with the company's permission, they can pull up the company record and see how many work permits they're qualified to hire. And then they can help you determine, like, if your nationality fits in the requirements and the job that you're going to be hired for has to be something that's written.

Jen: In their code, like for example, um, I don't know, like a salesperson would be something that would be under their codes, but if you're like a, I don't know, some of these new startup types like a customer success. MOM doesn't have that one.

Rachel: one, so you

Jen: to work with the company too to make, you know, to figure out what codes MOM has available and whether or not [00:29:00] that would fit with the role that you're hiring for.

Jen: So it has to be, you have to hire them for a role that's. It's already set in their system. They have a list of SSOC, which are occupancy codes, and there's like a 30 page document that lists every possibility and what those titles are that are in their system.

Paula: So when you say nationalities, are you talking about like if, if the, I don't know, Australian school needed a, a teacher part time to teach the Australian curriculum,

Jen: Mm hmm.

Paula: that what you mean? 

Jen: COVID happened and people weren't allowed to work on LOCs anymore. Um, the work permits were restricted to certain nationalities, like you can't hire a helper, for example, from Nigeria because that's not on MOM's nationality requirement for a work permit.

Jen: But you can hire one from the Philippines or Indonesia or Thailand because those are. And like some roles, they allow people [00:30:00] from China or India. Yeah. So.

Rachel: So,

Jen: They were very strict about it, but then they loosened it up whenever they started allowing dependent pass holders to work on a work permit. And so, um, There's a whole list in the MOM system, like when you're trying to put in somebody's information you can choose their nationality, and so far all the ones I've chosen have been there, but I can't tell you if all of them are there, but it's quite a lot of them, so I think the majority of countries are in there, but I think it's probably not all of them.

Rachel: That's interesting.

Paula: interesting. Isn't it? I've learned a lot today.

Rachel: Yeah, I have too. Especially about that work pass.

Rachel: That's really interesting. I thought, I didn't know about it. I just didn't know really how it worked. Um, and the fact that you can work part time. Because I know a lot of my friends would just like to work part time. You know, like,

Jen: You're talking about on the LOC for their own company? Or are you talking about on the one pass?

Rachel: Work [00:31:00] pass.

Jen: yeah, yeah. The work permit.

Rachel: Work permit. Work permit. Ah, that's probably where it gets confusing, right?

Jen: Yes, because they have different names for every single level of it and they use kind of the same terminology.

Jen: Permit, work, work, pass, yeah.

Paula: That's why we need someone like you.

Jen: to help. Yeah. Thank you.

Rachel: Oh, no, that's great. Well, we're going to put all of your details and everything that you've kind of mentioned to link to and things like that on show notes, so if anybody wants to get in touch with you, uh, they can. And, um, yeah. That's it. Thank you.

Paula: Thank you again.

Jen: Thank you. You've been great. My pleasure. Lovely

Rachel: to have you.