The Health Edit: Holistic Healing for Autoimmune Conditions in Singapore: Insights from Jo Brownlow 
 

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Paula: Welcome to Truly Expat Podcast, where we dive into the latest in health, wellness, and all things transformative. My name is Paula, and with me is Rachel, and today's episode is one you won't want to miss. We're thrilled to have Joe Brownlow, a leading functional medicine health coach, joining us to discuss a condition that affects many, but is often misunderstood, Hashimoto's disease. 

Paula: Jo has dedicated her career to helping people understand and manage autoimmune conditions and her insights into Hashimoto's, a condition where the immune system attacks the thyroid gland, are invaluable. From symptoms and diagnosis to holistic approaches for managing the condition, Jo will share her expertise and practical tips to empower those struggling with Hashimoto's. 

Paula: So grab a comfortable seat, maybe a cup of tea, and get ready to learn. Let's dive into this enlightening conversation with Jo. Brownlow. Welcome, Joe. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, 

Rachel: to have you [00:01:00] here. 

Paula: ha. So, I'd love to start, because obviously myself, I don't know much about, about it, but um, I know Rachel does, and so I'd like to, to explain what is it, and how, uh, what are the symptoms. 

JO: Okay. So, um, Hashimoto's is an autoimmune illness. Now, when I talk about an autoimmune illness, I'm referring to the fact that the immune system gets confused, or your internal immune system gets confused, and it starts attacking a body part. Now there are lots of different types like Celiac is that where the gut lining is attacked. And Sjögren's is where the, 

JO: ducts, 

JO: um, saliva ducts get, get attacked. So with Hashimoto's it's basically attacking the thyroid. Now the thyroid is the, butterfly shaped, gland that sits at the base of your neck. And it is, [00:02:00] It sets the metabolism for every cell in your body. So it's not just like we talk about metal metabolism when we talk about weight loss, but it's actually every single cell in your body has a specific rate. 

JO: So it's the speed at which your body functions. So when you get Hashimoto's, um, the immune system will attack the thyroid and it basically slows things down. Now, actually the thing with Hashimoto's is that it can also. Speed things up so you might have a fast acting thyroid as in hyperthyroid and a slow acting thyroid within the same 

JO: of time. 

JO: Um,  

JO: and it goes in flows, ebbs and flows. 

JO: Um, and I mean, most people don't really tend to know they've got it until they just start to feel very low energy. And that's the sort of the first sign that they're sort of knocked out by things that they used to be able to do. [00:03:00] Um, I mean, I can go into things like symptoms. Now, uh, the other thing I need, I suppose I need to define the difference between Hashimoto's and hypothyroidism because they're two different things. 

JO: Actually Hashimoto's causes the hypothyroidism. 

Paula: Ah, okay. 

JO: Um, but hypothyroidism is basically when your thyroid is not working optimally. And there can be other reasons for the thyroid not to work optimally. 

Paula: Okay. 

JO: So I, um, people can get confused and think that when they get treated for hypothyroidism, that's treating the Hashimoto's, but that's not actually what they're doing. 

JO: They're just supporting the thyroid so that it's working at the right speed. And there's different types of support you can have. Um, nutritionally you can support the thyroid and that could make it, because it could be that maybe the person isn't digesting their food well, so they're not breaking down the minerals in their diet and they're not [00:04:00] absorbing things like selenium, which is really important for the thyroid, zinc or iron. 

JO: These are three really key nutrients that are needed to allow the thyroid to function properly. Um, so, um, People will get diagnosed with hypothyroidism and in fact when you go to see a doctor, 

JO: he 

JO: would do a very basic blood test. So that blood test would be for two markers, which is 

JO: is TSH 

JO: which is basically not a thyroid hormone. 

JO: It's basically what the, , the pituitary gland is telling the body to make in, in thyroid hormone. It's sort of a messenger, , marker. Then they would also, sometimes they don't, they only just take the TSH, but they also take T4, which is a thyroid hormone. And it's the one that is created in the thyroid gland, but is not your actual active thyroid,, hormone. 

JO: So that's the tricky thing. And I think,, [00:05:00] you know, it's, it's, People will go to the doctor and they'll have their thyroid blood test and they go, Oh, I've had my, my thyroid tested and I'm fine. And that doesn't mean that they've taken the full thyroid panel, which is adding in the T3, which is the active thyroid hormone. 

JO: The thing that I sort of speak to most of my clients about is, has your doctor taken the full thyroid panel? And also has the doctor tested for the actual thyroid autoimmune antibodies? Now Hashimoto's causes about 80 percent of people with hypothyroidism. 

Paula: Okay. 

JO: So it's a large percentage of people. The other causes of hypothyroidism could be due to stress, toxins, nutritional deficiencies, those sorts of things. 

JO: Um, but you won't be tested automatically by your standard doctor. 

Paula: okay, 

JO: So it can be easily lost and people can actually [00:06:00] spend a long time searching for the answers without getting the solutions. And especially in other countries, I think in Singapore, we're lucky that doctors are actually more open to be requested to run a full thyroid panel. 

Paula: So do you have to go to the doctor and ask specifically for this? Okay. Highly 

JO: likely, yes. Unless they're a more functional doctor or they have dealt with more thyroid cases, or if you go into your doctor and you do describe classic hypothyroid symptoms, then they may automatically want to do a full thyroid panel. 

JO: If you sort of discuss things like, you know, body aches, um, constipation, dry hair, your head, um, dry falling out hair, dry skin, those sort of symptoms. He might go, Oh, that does sound a bit like hypothyroidism. I'll do a full panel. Um, the other thing to note is you can get your blood test back and be within range, but still be [00:07:00] hypothyroid. 

JO: If you're low in range for your T4 and T3, that means you've got low thyroid hormones. So to watch out for that because you might have classic hypothyroid symptoms and the doctor saying that you're fine. Now, I think we have to assess, you know, if you have these classic symptoms, then you are hypothyroid and it could be that maybe your thyroid hormones are suboptimally low. 

JO: And they're actually also not getting into your cells very well. And that's the link with the adrenals. So when you have, um, uh, which we were talking about prior to this, uh, recording, but, um, our adrenals work very closely. Now our adrenal gland is the gland that controls the amount of cortisol your body makes. 

JO: Now cortisol is your energy stress hormone. And so when people, cortisol. can be under chronic stress for periods of time. It could be either [00:08:00] through emotional stress, or it could be some physiological stress as in something happening inside their body, some infection. If their body is goes through a period of, of long periods of stress, their bodies can sort of stop creating enough cortisol in order to allow the body to sort of calm down a bit. 

JO: And that then can affect the ability for the thyroid hormones to be put into the cells too. And then that would indicate You're very low thyroid, but it might not show up in the blood. So it's that that's the tricky thing Seeing a traditional doctor And at that point if you feel that you aren't being listened to by your doctor I would start to ask the doctor to maybe have a referral and to advocate for yourself to get a referral to an endocrinologist Who would understand? 

JO: To run a full thyroid panel or understand it more 

Paula: And is it a certain age that you generally get [00:09:00] diagnosed? 

JO: Oh, no. I mean, I've, I've, I have clients of, you know, teenagers who've got, you know, Hashimoto's antibodies. fat of hundreds, uh, which is quite high. Um, but at the same time, I think we find that women as they're getting older and it's a lot, it's, it is more women than men. 

JO: Yeah, much more women than men who have it. It's very unusual actually to get men with hyperthyroidism. They may have it, um, because of, you know, maybe stress or, um, some nutritional deficiencies. Um, 

Paula: How old were you, Rachel, when you were diagnosed? Um. 

JO: was diagnosed in 

Rachel: I was diagnosed in 2019, so five years ago. So you're 21. 

JO: 21. 

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

JO: Yeah. 

Rachel: I avoided 

JO: Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, 

Rachel: yeah. Yeah. And I remember like. My friend had it and she was like, I think it was symptoms. I was just constantly [00:10:00] tired and I couldn't, and I, and I was doing a lot, but not really enough to make me tired. And, and my husband was going, why are you tired? It's weird. And you keep complaining about it. Even if you've slept, I could sleep for hours and hours and hours and hours. 

Rachel: And I wake up and I'm just like, so tired. And my friend at the time, she also had, uh, hashes and Then she was like, go and see the doctor, get a thing. And, um, so I got, I got diagnosed and the doctor just put me on a low dose of hormone. And then, and then she sent me to this endocrinologist 

Rachel: and she goes, I'll just put you on this and then you're done. And then off you go. Goodbye. And that was that. And I was like, is there no way of eating or anything? She's like, no, no, that's all we can do for you. That's it. I was like, you're the last, I'm never coming back, because she was so cut and dry and it was just it. 

Rachel: And I was like, why did you study like years and years and years in university [00:11:00] and you don't know anything? 

JO: Yeah. Well, they haven't been taught anything really, other than, yeah. It's an interesting thing because also there's different treatments for supporting the thyroid when you have Hashimoto's. And, um, Actually when you don't, but when you have Hashimoto's, you do tend to have a lot of something called inflammation, which is basically the body, um, is setting off alarm signals. 

JO: It's the immune system and this inflammation, um, can actually prevent you converting the T4 hormone to the T3, the bioavailable hormone. And the problem with that is, Most people and most endocrinologists will just prescribe a T4 support. So if you're being given T4 hormone and you're inflamed, And you don't have certain nutrients, you're not converting to the active T3. 

JO: So you could actually, and this is a little bit more confusing, [00:12:00] adding a bit of a, an issue to the puzzle is, you, you might actually be converting to a inactive form called reverse T3. And it's actually suppressing the thyroid more. So actually adding in the thyroid hormone support could suppress it more. 

JO: And also it's, the issue is sometimes they'll give you an amount which isn't enough to surpass what your thyroid was already doing. So you're taking such a low dose that it's suppressing it as well. So it's ramping up the dosages. So 

Paula: different rather than just, uh, you know, What Rachel said, just give you this and away you go. 

Rachel: I think, uh, as well, most doctors sort of look at you as sort of a median of everything, right? 

Rachel: They just take all of the results and they go, that's the median of, of what we get. And that's what you as, as the, your size and weight and, and how much you produce or not producing. That's what we prescribe for you. But your body is so unique. You know, people just don't look at. You know, the, the [00:13:00] things like, I perhaps have bigger bone structure, a heavier bone structure, I've been brought up in New Zealand, I'm a lot of protein, you know what I mean? 

Rachel: So I'm a bigger type of set, heavier set person than most. I don't know, people that they had seen, or especially here in Asia, I'm really like a giant. So you know, like, it is like that. And so, yeah. But I haven't had any problems, to be honest, in Singapore with, with healthcare and that. But in the U. S. 

Rachel: it was very much you are this, that, that. Yeah. It's, it's, 

JO: it's, it's quite stressful, you know, and I think a lot of people will just see the endocrinologist. 

JO: They'll go on a thyroid dose and they'll spend 10 years on the same dose and they'll still be hypothyroid and it's, you know, they've got to go back and advocate and say, I'm still not feeling great. Can I have a bit more to be able to actually get me to boost my thyroid, not just to keep it at this very low level.[00:14:00]  

Rachel: I also found that nobody ever did an ultrasound on my thyroid, which is so important. 

JO: in Singapore I think they do, 

Rachel: Yeah, they do it like 

JO: because they want to, you know, 

Rachel: to tell you if you are, uh, if you are hashes or not, yeah, or, you know, 

Paula: diagnosed that way? Like, by looking You 

Rachel: know, if you've got hashes, if there's like small holes, 

JO: A goiter, it's actually a little sort of a little, sort of like a cyst on the, On the 

Rachel: so my doctor said you've got like little pock marks in your, in your gland and that's how you know you're, because your body's been attacking it. 

JO: And did he take your antibodies? 

Rachel: Um, yes. 

JO: Yes. Because a lot of 

Rachel: of doctors take the antibodies. That's something that's 

JO: yeah, might take the antibodies, which, you know, shock horror, they've taken the antibodies, and then they don't bother taking more antibodies later. 

JO: They're like, oh, you've got Hashimoto's, you've got your antibodies done. Whereas actually when I work with a client, we see [00:15:00] that as a marker for improvement as in for me, my antibodies were four or five hundred at one point. And then, um, over the years because of, you know, how I've, I've addressed it. So, and that's a totally new subject as well is, um, that my antibodies have now down to sort of just, just above reference range. 

JO: Which is. It's pretty amazing, really. And that's because I've removed the root cause of why it's happening. And that's the whole thing with the way functional medicine works is it's trying to look at why did I start to get an autoimmune in the first place and what the autoimmune 

Rachel: So that's quite interesting. When you got your antibodies down to a base, were you still, do you still have to take the hormone? 

JO: Yes. Because I, for me, I. It's because my thyroid probably was damaged way before I even started the process. Some people might not be as further down. Now, [00:16:00] I'll talk about my own personal journey is I actually was born celiac, which is a bit of a weird thing. 

JO: So celiac being an autoimmune disease where my gut lining was being attacked. And, um, so for the first eight years of my life, I didn't eat gluten. Now, that was great. I mean, my mother, you know, this is 50 years ago, 52 years ago. My mother was amazing. She would get, um, flour from the doctor. 

Paula: Oh, 

JO: How weird is that? 

JO: They didn't, they didn't have a gluten free section in any of the shops and she would take the flour, like lots of it and get baked, um, loaves of bread baked at a bakery and then they would put it into the freezer. So, and sausages made in the, yeah. So she was very dedicated. And for eight years and I was going into hospital every year doing biopsies, you know, doing an endoscopy to check, to see what my gut lining was doing. And then at the age of eight, they said, Oh, She's got, her gut lining is, so every year I'd be off gluten and then they'd give me a [00:17:00] month of gluten diet and then, and see how I felt. And then they'll do the endoscopy and they were like, it's fine. She's no longer celiac at the age of eight. 

Rachel: of 

JO: So I mean, you don't get that now. 

JO: So I then spent the next 30 years eating gluten. Now the thing with any autoimmune disease is if you, once you have one and the reason why you need to address these autoimmune. issues is because it will then start to pick another body part. And so what my body did was it went from the gut and it went to the thyroid. 

JO: And, um, and I didn't help myself, you know, I was a really, not the healthiest, healthiest person for quite a long time. And, you know, I'm very glad that actually I got the diagnosis because It's allowed me, really allowed me to wake up and look after myself and I know that I'm doing the best for my future self now. 

JO: Um, [00:18:00] but yeah, so Are 

Paula: certain things that you can take and eat to help you then? 

JO: Well, there's certain foods to avoid. I think that's the biggest one. There are things that you can eat that also help. 

Paula: Yeah. 

JO: Um 

Rachel: yeah. 

Paula: the, 

JO: The foods to avoid, and I'm sure you've, you know, all about this. Um, 

Rachel: rearrange a menu at the restaurant basically every time you go, 

JO: the gluten is actually the one food that I ask all my clients that have an autoimmune illness to avoid because it is, um, it triggers the release of something called zonulin, which is an enzyme that, uh, um, opens up the junctions in your gut lining. Now, we don't want an open gut lining. We want to have it. 

JO: So it's semi permeable. So it's allowing the nutrition in and keeping the toxins out of the systemic body. [00:19:00] And, um, so when you eat gluten, the gut lining opens up, it's letting more food into the systemic body, before it's properly digested and it then causes the systemic, the immune system within our bloodstream to go this shouldn't be here and then it sends off these alarm bells. 

Rachel: Um, I mean, 

JO: mean, autoimmunity does tend to run in families, so there is a genetic aspect, but there's also this, this leakiness in the gut that you find in every person with autoimmunity. 

Paula: Yeah. 

JO: So that's the key thing to work on when you find somebody's got the Hashimoto's antibodies or other antibodies for autoimmunity, because there are other tests you can take for other autoimmune illnesses, is to work on getting the gut lining to, to actually be better. 

JO: Um, and, [00:20:00] um, yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it's all about 

Rachel: could, um, Oh, sorry. Yeah. Uh, rheumatoid arthritis. 

Rachel: Is that another same, same. Yeah. Yeah. My sister has that. So yeah. 

JO: So for her, 

Paula: My mom has that as well. And I have psoriasis. 

JO: Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. And so I, do you know, interestingly, when I went back on the gluten after I, after I'd had those eight years, I'd had, you know, perfect skin and I developed psoriasis. 

JO: And they call that sort of like a celiac 

Paula: celiac 

JO: extension. It's sort of coming out in the skin rather than the gut. So, gluten is the one. Oh, it's depressing. 

Paula: you later, pasta. Of course, processed foods. Yeah, 

JO: That must be a dessert. Yeah, quite hard. 

Paula: I think for me it's, it's pasta. I know that when I go on a, on a, and this is not the subject to talk about it, but when I go on my, uh, if I eat a lot of pasta or eat a lot of bread, I can see my skin flare up [00:21:00] and I know it. Like I know it, but I just like, I just love it. 

Paula: I'm Italian. 

Rachel: how do you 

JO: very addictive. That's the other thing. So for me, when I sort of, yeah. And I mean, dairy can have a very similar protein structure to, to gluten as well. So that can be, um, a challenge for a lot of people who also, you know, You know, have autoimmune illnesses, but you know, uh, the processed food, they've just cutting out processed, you know, ultra processed foods, you know, packaged foods, McDonald's, all those sorts of things actually. 

JO: Can also help a lot with inflammation because they're not, you know, you have to detoxify from a lot of these foods. You don't actually get nutrition from 

Paula: Yeah. 

JO: So, you know, adding in lots of phytonutrients and, you know, vegetables and fiber to help with the detoxification and protein. And, you know, there's a 

Paula: lot 

JO: foods that you can add [00:22:00] in rather than saying, Oh, I can't have it. 

JO: You know, like today, um, um, We made amazing, uh, seedy loaf. And I mean, now I love the food I eat and I don't miss it even in the summertime when I see everyone, the only times I get a little bit envious is when we're in a French restaurant and they're cracking into that lovely French bread, but you know, I, it took me quite a few years to actually stop entirely, but it then was like a switch in my mind. 

JO: And I think when you've got that switch and you realize. 

Rachel: the problem with 

JO: gluten is that opening of the gut lining takes a bit of time to come back again. So you have to spend, you know, three months off it to really see the benefits. 

Paula: Yeah, I think, I mean I can remember it takes me two weeks to flare up. Yeah. But it takes me months. to 

JO: back again. Yeah. 

Paula: So what about foods and, and acidic things like, [00:23:00] um, tomatoes and Nightshades. Yeah. 

JO: Nightshades. Okay. So with auto immunity, 

Rachel: to talk about it. 

Rachel: That was a big 

JO: So you're picking, so you're picking your audio. You see, that's the thing. So there is the AIP diet, auto immune protocol 

Rachel: diet. Yeah, I've done it before when I was in the U. It was so complicated. Yes. And then I was thinking of doing it here and I was just like, no. I'm not going to put myself through there. 

JO: You lose the will to live. Yeah. Yeah. Um, for people who are chronically inflamed and they've gone through the gluten and maybe also other grains, even the gluten, free grains. 

Rachel: Like oats. 

JO: Like oats. If I've worked with somebody and we've done the gluten free and the grains and the dairy and they're still not seeing any improvements, we talk about AIP. I don't tend to go straight into the AIP unless they're really well trained. Inflamed. Inflamed. Inflamed. And they're willing. I think [00:24:00] it's, it's a depend, because it's a very mental process changing your diet and cutting out food groups and you've got to sort of be quite 

Rachel: very hard here because the food here is just amazing. 

Rachel: There's so much here and uh, recently I gave up soy and I was just like, I just can't go anywhere, like, you know. 

JO: Soy sauce, I know. We're traveling to Japan at Christmas and I'm a bit like, oh my god, I'll take my own bottle of tamari, but I'm really not sure because 

Rachel: Can you use 

JO: a gluten. Yes, because it's a gluten free soy sauce. 

Rachel: Ah, okay, but it's still got soy in 

JO: Yes, it's still soy. Tastes exactly the same. 

Rachel: But, 

JO: So we'll go for Japanese restaurants and I'll take my little bottle of soy. 

JO: And if I forget it, I'll have to go to the cold storage and buy one. So we've got lots of little bottles of soy in our, 

Rachel: No, I mean, I knew that, and I just thought that I couldn't have any soy, so I thought I had to cut out. 

Rachel: Now I use coconut, coconut aminos. Yeah, but it's a 

JO: Actually, the Tamari is very good. 

JO: Yeah. 

Rachel: no, I've had coconut aminos. But I shouldn't have any soy. So, 

JO: [00:25:00] Well, that soy is all about, it's like a phytoestrogen. So if you have sort of sex hormone imbalance, then you might think about getting rid of phytoestrogens, but they're not essentially bad for you, phytoestrogens, especially for women who are going through perimenopause, because actually they might need a bit more estrogen in their bodies. 

Rachel: So, I 

JO: a bad thing. I 

Rachel: think one of the reasons why I had the adrenal fatigue is because of soy. And that's what my doctor said. So she said just Avoid soy altogether. No, it's going to be hard. 

JO: you were eating a lot of it, or? 

Rachel: Yeah, I was 

Paula: actually 

Rachel: actually. I was on a 

JO: the vegan diet, yeah. 

Rachel: a lot of tofu, tempeh, all of that sort of thing. And I was loving life, getting all my protein in and yeah. And then I was just like 

JO: Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah. But that's also an element of, you probably weren't getting enough of the animal proteins. 

JO: You know, I'm not against eating animal [00:26:00] protein as long as it's in good quality. Um, 

Rachel: And I think some people can survive on being a vegan or a vegetarian and some people just can't. And I've, I've been in the past. I know that I can't. And this was another, another red flag why I can't be a vegan because I just need, yeah. 

JO: Well, you're, you know, from New Zealand, and I think that sort of endemic in your genetic culture is, is meat is a, a big part of your food chain. 

Rachel: is everything. 

JO: Yeah. 

Paula: Cause does red, does red meat flare it up? 

JO: no, if you've bought it from say a massive feed lot in America, which is filled with hormones and preservatives and all that stuff. 

JO: Um, yeah, 

Rachel: GMOs, yeah. 

JO: The interesting thing with, um, with meat and, and I'm a little bit obsessed with is [00:27:00] digestion. And when you're hypothyroid, Your digestion slows down. You don't produce the same amount of stomach acid that you would do because it's Yeah. So 

Rachel: that 

JO: can exacerbate and cause a bit of a cyclical nature where basically you're not digesting the meat properly. 

JO: So you're not taking the proteins out, which you need amino acids to form your, and you're not taking the minerals out of your food. And that then exacerbates bloating, but it also then causes you don't have the nutrient cofactors to create the thyroid hormone. And so it then slows down your thyroid more. 

JO: And that then causes lower digestion. So it's that cyclical nature. 

Paula: Yeah. Yeah. ,  

Rachel: I was told that, that stress has a lot to do with Hashimoto's and handling stress. 

Rachel: I am really bad at handling stress. 

JO: got really bad. 

Rachel: no idea. What would you suggest somebody, [00:28:00] uh, with an autoimmune, how do they, how they should handle stress? Stress 

JO: as well for me. 

JO: Absolutely. Is that 

Paula: system? I mean, like, 

JO: Yeah, it does. It suppresses the immune system. Um, stress is a funny one. It, um, suppresses your ability to produce stomach acid for digestion. Um, it, um, suppresses your being in a chronic sympathetic 

Paula: dominant state, 

Rachel: which 

JO: state, which is that fight or flight state all the time, stops your body from doing the rest and digest repair processes. 

JO: And that's sort of one part. And I think a lot of people, You know, we live in a world that is much more stressful than it used to be hundreds of years ago. You know, we're online all the time and we're not aware of how much we're living in this sympathetic dominant state. Um, and also it's, it's lauded. 

JO: People are, you know, [00:29:00] you're respected for being always on and, you know, doing, doing, being perfect, you 

Rachel: know? 

JO: Um, but, but yes, so stress is that trigger. Basically suppressing your ability to to heal and repair and you don't get the right sleep because you've got higher cortisol and so um, it's it it's Very important to work on it now strategies for me Um, just breathing is an incredible tool and I tend to I tend to teach my clients the physiological psi Which is the easiest one to do just to get used to it. 

JO: And then we can move up to something a bit more long 

Rachel: that like? 

JO: So, yeah. So actually what it is, is you're breathing through your nose and you breathe to the top of your breath and then you breathe in a further breath. And then you, 

Rachel: ah, So shall we 

JO: so should we try it? Yeah. Come on ladies. 

Paula: like I'm at 

JO: We can do it. We can do it. So we're going to close our eyes. 

JO: I'm going to [00:30:00] do it three times. Yeah. So we're going to breathe in. 

Rachel: Oh, I feel better already. 

JO: Pardon? 

Rachel: sorry. 

JO: How 

Paula: How many times should you be doing that for you to start feeling? 

JO: You could do it four or five times. And if you're doing it when you're on your own at the moment, we're sort of together and you know, you can feel your body just go, move down. 

Paula: Do you do that when you feel like something's coming on? 

JO: Uh, you do it. Um, I do, I tend to do it between like meetings or getting it, getting in the car is my favorite time because I realize I'm sort of in that rush to get out and you're like, Oh, okay. 

JO: And you can do it with your eyes open. You know, it's physiologically. giving you a sigh inside your body. 

Rachel: [00:31:00] why 

Paula: The physiological side. 

JO: And when you sigh, you do feel that, huh, and it is changing your, your body and they've done tests on this, you know, in labs and they can see that that brings down your nervous system. Um, So that's, you know, just that, that breath work, but meditation, I love this thing called nine D breath work, which is a little bit, um, more, it is very intense actually, but that's, I love that sort of thing. 

JO: Even though I know that there's the sort of the down regulation breath work. Um, the 90 breath work is very much about sort of opening up and, and letting go. And that's all. It's all part of, a lot of people who have autoimmunity might have some, um, psychological blocks and challenges to go into in order to move out from it. 

JO: Yeah. Which is a bit heavy, really. Yeah, 

Paula: No, but it, I mean, I've, I've read so much about it and it, and so, so [00:32:00] breath work, meditation, exercise, 

JO: Exercise has to be a certain type of exercise. As in, we don't do the running madly, you know, running is probably the worst type of exercise for anyone with any form of thyroid or adrenal challenges. 

JO: Because it's, it's, Push, push, push cortisol, and that can really affect the, so cortisol is that, that hormone that we produce in the adrenal glands, which works very well with the thyroid. And, um, when we've got very high cortisol levels, um, we get spikes in cortisol and that can just lead to drops. So it's similar to like, in fact, cortisol mobilizes blood sugar and so can cause that sort of, uh, the highs and lows in blood sugar. 

JO: So that can exacerbate that. So strength training, I tend to advocate pretty much everyone. I love yoga. That's, you know, one of my favorite things. Um, [00:33:00] You know, if you are going to, if you are very into running, um, run walking as in, so you go for a walk and you do a little sprint and then you walk again and you don't get your heart rate past this sort of zone do zone two training. 

JO: So it's, it's in that, that lower zone. So you're not push, push, push, um, is much better for the body. 

Paula: Okay. Is that cause you, I guess you're right. You, you, you're 

JO: you're not high, high, high push, push, push. So you're not, yeah. Um, strength, you know, stretching the body, allowing it to just release is really, really good. 

Paula: I think it's for everything, right? I find, especially as we get older, strength training and stretching is so important for everybody, not just women, but 

Rachel: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. 

JO: Can 

Rachel: you, um, share some success stories or experiences that you've been 

JO: Well, for myself, I think, uh, [00:34:00] for myself, you know, I've, I feel a dedicated success story. Um, uh, I have had several clients who've autoimmune antibodies have like dropped massively. 

JO: Um, but it is about the root. And so I'm going to talk about the root now, the root cause of a lot of autoimmunity also could be related to some level of toxicity, like mold toxicity. We live in a country that's full of mold toxicity. So for me, mold was the key. Um, I had to bind mold. Morning and night. And the thing is, the binders you have to take away from food, so it's a little bit tricky. 

JO: But, if you can take the mold out of your body, it, it, 

Rachel: it 

JO: then allows for the drop in the autoimmune antibodies. Um, but it could be 

Rachel: by , binding mold? So 

JO: you're taking things like, uh, activated charcoal clay, they in pill form or in powders. And that basically goes into [00:35:00] your bloodstream and picks up the mold spores, the mycotoxins that are in your body. 

JO: So you can live in a place and a house with mold and you can absorb the mold through the mycotoxins, breathing it in and living in it. And it just stays in your body and it then affects your cellular, cellular health. As long as you, you're not detoxing well. So it's working at the same time as making sure that the, and, You know, we'll talk about this regarding children is making the detox pathways open so that You know making sure people have bowel movement every day a lot of people, you know Might have sort of liver challenges, so they're not Taking the toxins out of the body properly because our liver is our main detox organ. 

JO: So it's optimizing the liver, making sure our bowels are open, um, adding in the binders and that then is removing it from the body and it allows the mitochondria, 

JO: the mitochondria, 

JO: all 

JO: the cells to heal and work optimally. 

Rachel: [00:36:00] Activated charcoal also helps you, 

JO: When you get diarrhea. Yes. Yes. Uh, when you're constipated, you want to take the opposite cause it makes you constipated activated charcoal. Yeah. So you want to avoid it. And that's why it's that that balance between constipation and taking these activated charcoal. So it is, it's one of those processes that you need to be very patient with, but it's, it, you know, for me, it's made a massive difference. 

JO: Um, for other people, it might be, um, Epstein Barr virus, which is basically the glandular fever virus that you've had when you were a child, um, can reactivate if your immune system goes a bit skewed, but it can also cause the, the immune system to be skewed. You know, if you're under a period of quite high stress, your immune system gets skewed and then the Epstein Barr virus can come back and reactivate and cause this immune dysregulation. 

JO: So there's other, you know, looking for the root [00:37:00] cause is really important to actually move out to the other side. Yeah, 

Paula: rather than a band aid effect, you're really trying to feel out 

JO: Yeah, so it's that root, yeah. So, it's not a simple process. The cutting of the gluten allows for the body to, to, to rebalance. 

JO: And for some people, actually, that might be it. That might be it, you might be able to just work around that way. But a lot of the time, it could, it, it's something that's slightly more entrenched in the body. Okay. 

Paula: Very interesting. And so if you feel like your teenager or your child is going through those symptoms, the best way to go about it is through a GP or? Yeah, 

JO: go to see the, see the GP, ask for a full thyroid panel. 

JO: Um, run a, you know, hematology screening so that you can actually see. 

Paula: what 

JO: The differential is where the different, um, immune markers in, in the body, [00:38:00] you know, look for some nutritional deficiencies, you know.  

Rachel: If you are enjoying this episode. You might also like to hear more about pro aging with Dr. Caroline low. In episode 30, I'll link it in the show notes. Now, back to the episode. 

Paula: You also think moving here you have different symptoms to when you lived in another place? 

JO: Um, I've lived in Asia for a long time. 

JO: So I just, you know, 

Paula: What about you Rach, because you've moved?  

Rachel: When 

Rachel: I moved 

Rachel: I moved here I found the food a lot better. a lot better than when I was in the U. 

Rachel: S. Even though I was eating organically, I was trying the AIP diet, I still was living in a high, highly stressful environment like New York. And, yeah, I struggled. And then when I came here, I was like, okay, maybe I can relax a little bit more. And I did everything in moderation. I was still having, I went back on the [00:39:00] gluten. 

Rachel: I went back on the dairy. But I had it. Like minimal amounts and I felt great. I was fine for ages. And then I thought oh Maybe I just need to be a bit more careful about my diet. I know that I have to 

JO: um, 

Rachel: Pick things up and that's when I thought oh, yeah, I can do this. Um, I Went on green kitchen, which is this great great Company who you know send out food, and they do no gluten, no dairy, and they made all the meals for us, so it was a lot less stressful. And then I went on this vegan diet, thinking I was being even smarter. And then, and then I went down, you know, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so it was just all this trial and error, maybe over trying things. 

Rachel: I have to just try a little bit of soy and just see if, you know, if I just have a little bit here and there, it might be okay. I don't know. I don't know. 

JO: yeah, I think it, it should be. Um, I think it probably was [00:40:00] just the lack of other proteins that you were, you know. 

JO: Um, so vegan diet, you sort of have to have loads of pulses and, and grains and nuts and seeds to give you that whole, even though soy has got a 

Rachel: I mean it was quite varied and in the weekends I was eating meat and stuff.  

JO: So you were vegan during the week and then eating meat at the weekend. But 

Rachel: There was absolutely nothing normal about me. Uh, but no, no, but I was like, if you do the flexitarian thing, you know, where you like maybe 60, 40. So I thought, you know, environment. 

Paula: you'd being good? 

Rachel: Yeah. So it wasn't, it wasn't about being a vegan, uh, not eating animal meats. It was just reducing. Intake. And it was more about that.  

JO: Is there 

Paula: anything else you'd like to add 

JO: to not allow the doctor to just say, no, you're fine. To insist that you get the [00:41:00] full thyroid panel. If you have the autoimmune antibodies raised, to have them done regularly rather than, and try, try to work on the root cause. 

JO: Um, because you can just be feeling fine, but actually you don't want to. it to get worse. If you know what I mean, you want to be able to make sure that you're not going to end up, you know, getting MS later on in life or, you know, you, you want to address it. 

Paula: and if anyone wants to contact you, best way to get in touch with you. 

JO: Um, well there's my website, I'm on Instagram, joe brown, low holistic health. One word. Um, and my website, joe brown, low. com. 

Rachel: Yeah, we can definitely. Yeah. 

Paula: Thank you so much for coming on today. You're a wealth of knowledge. Both of you gave me some, so much more information. Um, now I'm not going to say I walk out here as an expert, but I know a lot more than I did when I walked in. 

Paula: So 

JO: you. 

JO: Yeah, thank you. Thank 

Rachel: you. It's been great. [00:42:00]