Episode 47: Celebrating Singapore: Uncovering Singapore's Past: A Talk with Josephine Chia

Rachel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Truly Expat Podcast. I'm Rachel, and here with, my co-host Paula. Today we're excited to speak to Josephine Chia. A renowned author who blends Singapore history and Peranakan heritage into her writing, with 14 published books and her 15th on the way, Josephine has earned notable awards including the Singapore Literature Prize. Join us as we explore her journey and her upcoming book launch at this Singapore's Writers Festival. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Joesphine: Thank you Rachel and Paula for inviting me. 

Rachel: It's lovely to have you here. so let's start at the beginning. What was life like for you growing up in Singapore? 

Joesphine: Uh, I was born in a village called Kampong Potong Pasir is still around, but it's now a HDB estate. Uh, in my time it was only, uh, Sort of, uh, wooden houses with, [00:01:00] uh, palm thatched roofs, so, which we call in Malay. And, uh, so, uh, we are bounder our borders, if you like, is the Ang River, uh, coming down from Pierce Reservoir on one side.

Joesphine: And on what the other side is, uh, the Ang,

Joesphine: Serangoon,

Joesphine: uh, upper Ang Road. Oh, okay. So that provided the border for, uh,

Joesphine: Potong 

Rachel: Oh, lovely. 

Joesphine: And, uh. Obviously, nearer the river, uh, because of the silt from the overflow of the river during the monsoon, they, they grow vegetables, so there's a great deal of farmland along there. Mostly the Chinese settled there, so, and they rear pig, so that, that was called the Chinese side of the kampong.

Joesphine: So, uh, that, uh,

Joesphine: was

Rachel: Before they had Potong Pasir, there were supposed to be hills there. So, when they cut down the hills, in Malay, it's to cut the sand. [00:02:00] Potong means to cut, Pasir is sand.

Rachel: uh, the

Joesphine: So, in excavating the

Joesphine: the

Joesphine: sand, you know, for Potong Pasir, the swamps, to fill up the swamps in Toa Payoh and Paya Lebar. We had a lot of swamps then.

Joesphine: So there, there were very big, uh, crater holes and such, uh, four of them. And because of the river, as well as the monsoon rain, it filled up with, uh, water. So, uh, Potong Pasir is known for the big ponds, as well as for the annual floods, because the, the current Potong The level of the ground is higher than the, uh, time when I was growing up.

Joesphine: Because the time when I was growing up, the ground was at the same level as the river. So when the, uh, rains come in, it will flood the, the, uh, whole village. And just on a small hillock on the left side of the village is, uh, St. Andrew's Missionary [00:03:00] School. And every year, they have to open up the school hall to the children.

Joesphine: Uh, allow all the flood victims to stay there until the floods subsided, yeah. Oh wow, did they, so what were the houses like? Were they, were they not in stilts or did they modify it? Uh, some and some. So that means, uh, that these four ponds that I'm talking about, uh, they, they had, uh, the, the houses closest to the ponds will be on stilts and, uh, the, those that are in the, in the, in the grounds are not on stilts.

Joesphine: But they are all the, uh, old fashioned houses. Yeah. Oh, lovely. That must have been amazing memories back then. Yeah, although we had a life of deprivation because we were very, very poor. And, uh, we had no electricity. Uh, I, I was just trying to think when did I actually have. I think, uh, after independence they had some, uh, they had a, what do you call that, a generator.

Joesphine: So we had a bit of electricity. [00:04:00] So, and then I never saw a tap, like now if I go use a tap to turn on, I never saw a tap until I was

Joesphine: 24.

Joesphine: goodness. Wow. Wow. We had to get water from the well.

Paula: You'd really see the change from now.

Joesphine: Tremendous for me. So when I came back from England, uh, I've, I've been there for about 30 years, I went there to do my master's degree and all that.

Joesphine: I said, I really need to document. this, uh, era of Singapore, because it's all changed, I myself feel the changes that have taken place in Singapore. And our young people, my own children included, uh, would not have known the Singapore that I lived through. And, uh, also I feel that, uh, I felt that if, if, if that is lost, it would be a shame because that is part of our roots and in a way I want young people to appreciate, our own young people to appreciate where Singapore is now compared to where [00:05:00] we were before.

Joesphine: Um, most of us were,

Joesphine: back, the

Joesphine: I would say 90 percent of those people in the village were very, very poor. Yeah, we didn't have any running water. So we had a well, uh, the colonial government eventually created a Standpipe sort of like about half a mile or my my numbers are no good. So quote me so we had to go there to get some drinking water or during the period of the Hot season like in june july where the wells start to dry up with no water So they either that tap Which we share with the whole village Or a municipal truck will come along and then we have to get a bucket of water each.

Joesphine: Wow, that's incredible. Or a flashcard of it somewhere. Ah, so. Chewing to get the water, you know. 

Paula: Yeah. 

Rachel: what did your family do in this village? 

Rachel: What did they do? 

Joesphine: Uh, my father, of course, most, uh, like my father, they were working for the [00:06:00] colonial government. So he was working for an English company called William Jacks.

Joesphine: They were doing And then, uh,

Joesphine: those who

Joesphine: many of the children in the village, particularly girls, were uneducated. Because, like, my parents have eight living children, living, I say, some died. According to my mom, she had a child every other year from the year she died. She was married at 17 and her last child was at 40.

Joesphine: So she had something

Paula: Oh my gosh! 16 children.

Joesphine: out of which eight died because we were so poor. We had nothing to eat. So education was definitely not in the cards girls because they say, Oh well, girls, you know, they marry off and belong to the other family and all that kind of thing. So the boys, my three living elder brothers.

Joesphine: were educated by St. Andrew's School, which is a missionary school. So when the [00:07:00] missionaries came out here, the, you know, all the various, uh, denomination, they kind of influenced people by, you know, giving them education or getting food and all that kind of thing. So like when my father heard about this church that was getting Uh, giving away food and clothes and all that kind of thing.

Joesphine: He would go there and every month he would come home. He's a Catholic church, and, and I think about the third or fourth time, the priest said to him, hello, Mr. Chia. Uh, you are here again, and you're still a Buddhist. He said, yes,

Paula: said,

Joesphine: well, you you've been here a few times, you know, getting all food and all clothes.

Joesphine: church and,

Paula: Perhaps

Joesphine: you should consider becoming a Catholic. Okay, my father said. went home and said to my mother, Guess what? We're all becoming Catholics. So he took all children there to the church and the priest said, Okay,

Joesphine: Said

Joesphine: I tell you what, since you're all going to be Catholics, these [00:08:00] Chinese names are all very difficult, so we'll give you saint names from the Bible or whatever book took.

Joesphine: He

Joesphine: And he took the first whatever book, Bible probably, he took a pen and said, Pentateuch. My father, you're now called John. Okay, that's quite easy, syllable. Said to my mother, you're now called Catherine. Huh? It's a three syllable English word. If you don't speak the language, three syllables is very difficult.

Joesphine: Yes, for sure. And my eldest brother cursed his name. He was called, you won't believe it, Romulus.

Paula: Oh,

Rachel: What a fabulous name.

Paula: This day and age, it'd be very cool.

Paula: I

Joesphine: I don't know how Romulus turned to become Roma. Then Roma became Doma because my grandma couldn't say it.

Paula: And

Joesphine: he hated it so much he changed it by Dipo to Dani.

Joesphine: Oh, that's shame because I love that. Oh, Romulus, what a fabulous name. So, my, uh, third brother, [00:09:00] uh, Five years older than me, was called Joseph. So eventually when I came along, I was just called Josephine. And, uh, my father thought I'd die like all my other sisters apparently. And so he said, oh, let's not bother with registering her name because, you know, it'd be a waste of time.

Joesphine: She'd be dead in a month's time. Oh my God, yeah. Because so of her children were born. Yeah. Anyway, so. He didn't register and he didn't register. Eventually, one month later, I'm still kicking around. So my mother said, I think you better go register her, you So, gave him a Chinese name and date of birth and time of birth and all that.

Joesphine: I don't know what, he went. where he went to, en route to the birth, the registration place. By the time he reached there, he forgot the Chinese name. He even forgot the birth date. So I made two days younger by mistake. I was born on the 18th of March, which my mom would always celebrate. But my [00:10:00] birth certificate says 20th of March.

Joesphine: And then he forgot the time, so he just gave any time. So

Paula: an interesting story. It's, it's very similar to what my dad, my dad was born in Italy. My grandmother always said that he was born on a completely different month to what he's registered in, because back in the town, the little village, it just, months and months and months before anyone writes anything down because they pass away, right?

Paula: Yeah, wow. What an interesting story. I'll just laugh,

Joesphine: I'm called Josephine, but because my brother Joe was called Joe, like there can't be another Joe. And besides, they didn't, nobody knows that the short form of Josephine is Joe, Josie, Joey. And when I was in England, people said, did you know that the short form is Joe, Joey?

Joesphine: I said, yeah, but my mother didn't. Fiend. I thought you were talking me

Paula: me Jo Jo. Do you know it's funny because in Italian it's Giuseppina, because that's my sister's

Joesphine: name.

Paula: name And [00:11:00] for a while she was Josephine, Josie, but now she's embraced and she's Pina, she's been Pina for like 40 years.

Joesphine: But it's

Paula: It's, it's a derivative of, you know, all that names.

Paula: I love the, I love that whole philosophy of names and how they came about and you know, what the story is. So it was very intriguing. . Yeah.

Joesphine: did

Paula: When did it change, when did the kampong change into what it is now? Right. Uh,

Joesphine: but in the first rally when, uh, LKY was, uh, trying to build up the PAP.

Joesphine: He went round to all the various islands and, uh, in, uh, outlying islands as well as all the villages in, in, uh, in Singapore. And, uh, he came around and, uh, we expect, I, I saw LKY, in fact, I wrote it in Kampong Spirit. Wow. And I actually sent him a book, a copy when the book came

Paula: Oh wow.

Joesphine: I remembered, I was very young then, but it was so, uh, [00:12:00] dramatic and staggering.

Joesphine: He's, he has a. He had a fantastic, uh, presence, you know. So they created a platform, a wooden platform, and he went on it. My father hoisted me on his shoulders and I could see him clearly. And I still remember LKY striding to the stage.

Rachel: That's Lee Kuan Yew. 

Joesphine: Lee Kuan Yew, sorry. LKY and Lee Kuan Yew, our founder Prime Minister.

Rachel: People's P-A-P . 

Joesphine: P-A-P People's Actions Party. Sorry. Right. Yes. No, no problem. Yeah. And uh, and, uh, we, everyone has heard that, uh, he's, he was, uh, studying at Cambridge and all that kind of thing, so we expected that he might be speaking in a posh voice or something like that. Oh, And he was very good. The majority of people in Singapore at that time.

Joesphine: He Malay, because Malay was a national still is actually, and Hokkien. Most people spoke Hokkien, you hardly ever speak Mandarin. And so, [00:13:00] so he opened his opening speech with Malay

Joesphine: Hokkien,

Joesphine: Hokkien, and he just asked very simple questions, like, would you like food to eat, duh, right, you know, and would you like to have

Joesphine: tea? Uh, uh,

Joesphine: Jobs, because there were no jobs.

Joesphine: Very few, uh, jobs for people. The majority of our village were very poor. And so, and uh, would you like an education? So like, or a nice place, a better place to live. So, he said, if my party come in, I will make sure That your children are educated. You know, we will give all, make sure the girls are educated.

Joesphine: But clearly, because girls are generally not educated. Like myself. And, uh, so. And, uh, food to eat. Like who would say no to these Everybody voted that way. Yeah. No, that's a real promise, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And he did. [00:14:00] And he said, and I wrote from Seerangoon wrote. Towards the river was just potholes of mud and all that.

Joesphine: And, uh, immediately after they came, oh, 1959, he came in, uh, or PP came in, they sent lorry loads of, uh, sand and gravel and all that to build the road. We build the road ourselves. Yeah. And this was the subtitle of my book, Ong Royal Got Royal is a, Malay is now translated as Kampong Spirit, but, uh, got Royal has a, has a.

Joesphine: a,

Joesphine: A kind of nuance about being a community, being together, and that, uh, building of the road was the biggest, for me, memorable event, because, so we dumped, the lorries dumped the, the sand and the gravel and all that, and we all danced on it, stamped on it. Oh, they danced on it. And then all the old people. who couldn't dance so much, they will be carrying around water and kueh kueh, you know, [00:15:00] the little cakes and all that, or curry puffs, you know.

Joesphine: So we all built the road ourselves. And it one of those really wonderful memory for me.

Paula: What a great community. Yeah. It was

Joesphine: it was fantastic. It was fantastic. I'm still in touch with some of them. We have a chat group together to remember all the old days. Of course, Because the majority of the people were poor, we didn't have, uh, certain things that, you know, uh, other people have.

Joesphine: But there wasn't that sense of, uh, oh, you know, jealousy or something like that. We were all building towards making a life for ourselves. And, um,

Joesphine: outdoors. And

Joesphine: we is a

Joesphine: a wonderful spirit. Because in the evening, uh, we didn't have television to get Back to in the evening or your computer or so we would be sitting outdoors and we will be chatting to each other So we actually talk to

Joesphine: Yeah. [00:16:00] He also would

Joesphine: People will tell stories mostly in Malay because I'm on in the Malay section remember the Chinese section is where the pigs are They don't, they can't make the Muslim don't live in that area. Ah, okay, yes, of they call it the Chinese part of the temple. So we sit around, and in my book I mention this guy who plays the guitar.

Joesphine: And then, uh, we would, uh, sing songs and recite the Pantun, which is a Malay poem.

Joesphine: it

Joesphine: And people would tell stories. And it actually created, you may imagine, the beginnings of a writer because I thought, oh, how wonderful, you know, wonderful stories and all that kind of thing. And

Paula: You're obviously a good storyteller. So that was, I guess, my lead in to where, how did the writing all start?

Joesphine: Yeah, this, this place, I think, I think this lovely, um,

Joesphine: soiree, as

Joesphine: kind of evening soiree as such. You know, you sit there and people are just talking, telling [00:17:00] stories about grandmama, this and that, and some of them may come from different parts of Malaya.

Joesphine: Malaya and Singapore were part of the same country as such. We were Malaya.

Joesphine: associated with

Joesphine: And so there were lots of wonderful stories, sometimes about the, uh, stories from the Malay annals, the Sejarah Melayu, which is the Malay annal. And they are all the legendary, uh, people that had populated Singapore and all that kind of thing.

Joesphine: I was so fascinated. And eventually, I mean, I, I was not educated to about maybe seven and a half or eight, you know, I, my family had no money. So my brothers were educated by missionary. So then I saw a Milo tin one day and I couldn't read the word because if you don't know the language, you can't read M I L O.

Joesphine: You know, like Really, it looks like worms to you, you know. I suddenly, I sat down and cried, you know. I think, oh my god, I must be really stupid. I [00:18:00] can't make out these things, you know, these words. And I cried and cried. My mum said, why are you crying? I said, because, what are these things? Are they worms or what?

Joesphine: I said, and she said, no, no, because you don't have an education. You're not stupid, but you don't have an education. I want to go to school, I want to go to school. That's what I think. you go My mom said, well we're going to have the money for school. We don't even have enough money to, yeah, education was a luxury.

Joesphine: This is one of the reasons why writing the books I write, to tell people that, hey, not for everybody is not free, you know. It's not like suddenly go to school, primary school, secondary school, then university. Wow, you know, every stage for me was a struggle. And, uh, to, to get an education. So, oh, my mom said, my father said, I'll kill you if you touch the housekeeping money.

Joesphine: At that time, men do that kind of thing. yeah, yeah. So, my mom, my mom was also Peranakan, so she's fantastic cook. So she said, well, I suppose it makes some good sense[00:19:00]

Joesphine: you

Rachel: for you to be educated because you can contribute, you know, to the family and blah, blah, blah. So.

Joesphine: am I

Rachel: Okay, she's saying, how am I going to do this?

Rachel: So she said, uh, okay, she makes fantastic nasi lemak, you know, coconut rice, right? So, which we eat for breakfast, lunch, dinner, that kind of thing.

Joesphine: the coconut

Paula: And

Rachel: We had all the coconut trees there, fresh coconuts. Wow, her nasi lemak was fantastic because

Paula: imagine, yeah!

Rachel: The Malay boy would climb up the tree, pluck the coconut.

Rachel: Everything had to be done by hand, grated by hand and all that. And she said, if you're really interested in going to school, you go around the village and sell it. I said, okay. So, she packed them up and I went round the village selling the nasi lemak. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So, that got me some money to go in. Of course, my elder brother, eventually, when they started work, it was also easier.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So, that, so by the time So, he contributed to the family. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. They contributed to my education. And then, because I went to school, my two younger sisters went to school. [00:20:00] also eventually went to school. So in a way, uh, after I learned English, I have two best friends, one Malay girl and one Indian girl. And, uh, the English family, I think I showed you a picture of the black and white houses, the Mok Tudor houses at the top of the hill. So when they cut off the hills to create our village, that, those hills were left intact, which is now

Paula: uh, okay. Yeah.

Rachel: So the, the English families live, uh, in those houses.

Rachel: And they have, like, fruit trees around in the big gardens, right? So, when we were hungry, the village children would all scrabble up the hill. And then if we see the branches hanging over the fence, we consider that that part is public. Ah, absolutely. That is so fun. That is a great memory. We

Joesphine: uh,

Joesphine: get our fruits and all that.

Joesphine: And then my elder brother, Joe taught me how to look through [00:21:00] dustbins, you know, because the English would throw things out. They were the only ones, and some rich Singaporeans, who would be able to go to Cold Storage. The only, the one at Centrepoint, used to be at Centrepoint, the only British supermarket before Fitzpatrick's came in.

Joesphine: Is

Joesphine: that

Joesphine: right? Yeah, yeah. And so, we couldn't afford things Cold Storage. Absolutely. Even to buy an apple. Today, apple is everywhere. But in those days, to eat an apple, it's like you are a millionaire already. For us. Because they're imported, aren't they? Because they're imported. Anything imported. So, uh, of course the English would always have, uh, fantastic garden parties,

Joesphine: right?

Joesphine: And, uh, we would see, you know,

Joesphine: The,

Joesphine: The table all laden with

Joesphine: like

Joesphine: turkey sausage rolls and salivating outside. And once I tried to, uh, the, Amma, they, had, the English family had

Joesphine: a couple of

Joesphine: alsatian dogs, tall as I was.

Joesphine: [00:22:00] and they

Joesphine: threw a piece of steak to the dog and my brother Joe

Joesphine: and I tried to

Paula: to wrestle again.

Paula: Oh my God. I

Joesphine: nearly got my head beaten off. Oh yeah.

Paula: Yeah.

Joesphine: And so, my brother taught

Joesphine: me how to look through the can.

Joesphine: So, she said, don't put your hand in, take out layers and layers

Joesphine: so you can find good food.

Joesphine: And, uh, interestingly, when I tell this story in England, people, like,

Joesphine: when,

Joesphine: go like this.

Joesphine: They

Rachel: Yeah, wow.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joesphine: And apple,

Joesphine: most people would throw out

Joesphine: a blackened sort of of apple. But there are parts, if you cut

Joesphine: off the Yeah. Eaten You can still eat it. And

Joesphine: bananas. Uh, and things like, uh, biscuits. Oh, I used to love. They had all these beautiful English tin, you know, biscuit tin with a

Joesphine: decoration, right?

Joesphine: Yeah. Oh, they're so stunningly beautiful. And the English people, uh, people would just, families would put their, their, their, their

Paula: uh,

Joesphine: Fairy cakes

Joesphine: and the cakes and all inside and they

Joesphine: [00:23:00] chuck out the whole thing. And we get one of those. Wow, it was like treasure for us. That's like Christmas. Yes, that's Christmas.

Joesphine: So we shared

Joesphine: yeah.

Rachel: Amazing. So that was part of the relationship

Joesphine: of the English to our, you

Joesphine: know, village

Joesphine: people. 

Joesphine: When did you write your first book?

Joesphine: oh,

Joesphine: Um, I think I've always, oh, I meant to mention that One of the other things, uh, the other things that they used to throw out

Joesphine: with the Bino

Joesphine: comics. And of course we can look at Beano comics even without reading.

Joesphine: Yeah, yeah. Then eventually when I was able to read, they were throwing out Enid Blyton books. So I was reading to my friends who were not educated. And so, uh, I love the, the famous five stories, you know. Yes. And so I, I said to myself, oh, I wish one day, this combined with our evening soiree where they tell stories.

Joesphine: Wow, storytelling is so much fun. You know, I enjoy it so much. One day I hope to be a writer. So I kind of nursed that dream as a closet writer for many, many years before I started writing [00:24:00] short stories first. And I was published in Singapore. Uh, there was a literary magazine called Singa, S I N G A, which is the lion.

Joesphine: And,

Joesphine: uh, so I was first published in that and a few magazines. And then I decided that,

Joesphine: you my dream be do literature

Joesphine: in

Joesphine: University

Joesphine: here and But we couldn't afford it. So anyway, I When I finish us what is senior Cambridge now all levels I became a nurse

Joesphine: I was a nurse

Paula: you? Wow. Okay.

Joesphine: Under the dental section in a hospital under oral surgery So I was a nurse for seven years and meanwhile, I

Joesphine: saved money

Joesphine: to get to university So eventually I did get the university to do oral surgery My favorite, literature and philosophy.

Paula: Wow.

Joesphine: And then, eventually, my master's

Joesphine: degree in creative writing.

Joesphine: in Bath Spa University, yeah,

Joesphine: fantastic. That's a I've

Joesphine: I've always nursed it, you know,

Joesphine: You've always known what you wanted [00:25:00] to do. Yeah, it's

Joesphine: quite interesting because a lot of people, uh

Rachel: with a mylotin. Yeah. Yeah.

Joesphine: Who can tell, who can say that story?

Paula: story?

Joesphine: Yeah. Now I can read M I L O.

Rachel: Yeah.

Joesphine: Yeah, so that was my journey. And, uh, because obviously I wasn't confident, uh, in, in my own capacity for the language, as well as, uh,

Rachel: the ability to

Joesphine: write. Although I got a few short notes. Stuff, uh, uh, publisher. But when I went to England, I, I was in a very

Joesphine: good community. I lived

Joesphine: down in, uh, down south, so

Joesphine: people were very nice

Joesphine: And you know, I talked to writers. I went to various literary events.

Rachel: Bath is a lovely town.

Joesphine: isn't it? I didn't live in bar. Oh. I studied there for two years. I was in

Joesphine: Surrey. Oh,

Joesphine: then in South.

Paula: Still pretty, yeah. Yeah,

Joesphine: so that's a lovely place as

Joesphine: of course there are so many

Joesphine: literary

Joesphine: Giants or ghosts of giants in, in there. [00:26:00] So like, I feel like I'm in a,

Joesphine: uh,

Joesphine: was in the right atmosphere. I love that. Yeah. About England and, uh, yeah, so, and then, uh, when I submitted a, what is called a long short story, which

Joesphine: between 3, 000 and 10,000 words and like it got in, I was like, I nearly fell off my So I think that was the first time I felt that, um. I could call myself a writer, you know. I was accepted by someone in UK, in authority in UK. So I feel like, yeah, hey, I'm there now. Only as a writer, you know. Because I was so diffident about myself. Thinking, oh, how can I do this? How can I make money from this?

Joesphine: know?

Joesphine: And I didn't want to go down

Joesphine: journalist

Joesphine: group, uh, uh, route because I, I felt that that might be too pragmatic. So it's not like creative writing, so it

Joesphine: be different.

Joesphine: It would

Joesphine: detract me. So I thought if I did other jobs meanwhile, [00:27:00] you know, I can still save my time for writing. Because creative writing

Joesphine: so different.

Joesphine: Creative writing is very, very different than, like, I, I'm I'm a blogger. blogging is

Joesphine: very different to creative writing. Very, yeah.

Paula: And as much as I, you know, I love creative writing. It's, it's a passion of mine and one day I'm hoping to write a book. So, but it's the style of Yeah. Um, of, of writing and journalism is, is so different.

Paula: Right. It's investigative. It's,

Rachel: Factual. Yeah. And you have to sort of stick to the topic, really.

Joesphine: Yeah.

Joesphine: When you're a creative writer, you're just like Free flow.

Joesphine: free flow. Yeah,

Rachel: Go whatever you want with that. And all the characters can do exactly what you want.

Rachel: Yeah, I

Joesphine: I love it, yeah. Yeah. And I think with creative writing, unlike a report that we have to present, or even a blog, you are giving out information.

Joesphine: So that is quite different from creative writing, which as you say is free flow, [00:28:00] and not only that, you are trying to capture the musicality of language. It's not for information only. Yes. If it's language, there's a consumption for information only, it'd be direct, it'd be, you know, just factual, you stick to.

Joesphine: it. It's not that,

Joesphine: uh, creative writing isn't factual, there are, it touches on a lot of facts, but it's used in such a way as to emote more than to Like an emotionality, right? Yes, yes, it's emotional. Rather than just, these are the facts of life. Yes, correct.

Joesphine: That's why I love

Joesphine: it. I think once I get into

Joesphine: this book I'm

Joesphine: uh, launching on the 17th, it's about writing.

Joesphine: It's about, uh, how to get into that state of, uh, that frequency, if you like, you know, where you are in that flow. So you move away from just information based, some giving information, but you are trying to, uh, Develop a story, [00:29:00] but using language, uh, in, in a very careful way. Your, your, your selection of words is very important because that emotes the right kind of, uh, feeling in the reader.

Joesphine: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel: For sure. Yeah, that's so intriguing. I really want to read it

Paula: Yeah,

Joesphine: I'd be interested

Paula: because I feel like when you're writing, it's like a zone. It's like on,

Paula: you know, when you're an athlete. No, I don't. Yeah, yeah. It's actually

Joesphine: use

Joesphine: use the, the, the, the, the word zone for athletes. When they get into that

Joesphine: zone. Yeah. They

Joesphine: just, you know, they're very focused.

Joesphine: Yeah. So what happens when you are very focused, even in writing or in cooking, that's why people say, what is this book? Is this a memoir or is how to, for writing? Or it's about cooking

Joesphine: It's

Joesphine: everything. But, uh, because when you're so concentrated, what happen is that you, you keep.

Joesphine: keep going.

Joesphine: Keep all the rest out, the things that you don't need.

Joesphine: You're very focused. And when you're totally [00:30:00] in that, it's almost like a high, transcendental, meditative

Joesphine: state.

Joesphine: I find it so beautiful just to be in that state, you know, of writing. I mean, talk about earning money, forget about it. I get like a dollar a book.

Joesphine: It's

Joesphine: all the spinoffs when I get to give talks that earn the money.

Joesphine: Because otherwise, you know. I can't survive full time, so I give talks in school, people ask me to do this and that and all that, so I've got a few appearances here and there and that, yeah. But the absolute joy of the creative process is

Paula: of the creative process is wonderful.

Rachel: mean?

Rachel: Like it might be a story, but it's like,

Paula: that

Joesphine: Definitely. That is the best. You are already in the zone.

Joesphine: if you like.

Joesphine: You just need to There are actually two parts of being a writer. So that first part is where the inspirational part, [00:31:00] that tapping into your deep resources, unconscious things come out.

Joesphine: It's just like this book. If you want me to chat about that, it's called Quite interesting how this book came about. I was planning just a how to write book.

Rachel: Tell us the name of the book.

Joesphine: Ayam Buah Keluah

Joesphine: Buah Keluak

Joesphine: and the Art of Writing. So ayam means chicken and then buah keluah is a special fruit. Um, there's a big fruit called a football fruit because it's as big as a football or rugby ball actually and within it there are lots of, uh, artifacts.

Joesphine: Nuts inside and inside each of the nuts are

Joesphine: seeds.

Joesphine: And the seeds are really, when you crack them open and, and, and blend them, they're like cacao. It's very thick sauce. When you

Rachel: cook it with the chicken is really very nice.

Joesphine: And uh, but the thing is that the, um, the. Nut itself

Joesphine: has grooves

Joesphine: and within the grooves are cyanide

Joesphine: poison and [00:32:00] everybody said

Joesphine: Peranakan must

Joesphine: crazy I guess over the centuries, no Peranakan has been dead

Paula: know,

Paula: like I'm writing story this character might try to her husband

Paula: maybe she said, oh, no, no,

Rachel: oh no, no, I can't kill my husband because he's the father of my children, but I just make him uncomfortable

Joesphine: basically.

Joesphine: I was going to do a how to book, but this title came to me. Ayam Buah Keluah and the art of writing. I thought this is nuts because I'm just writing a book on writing. Cause I am a creative writing teacher because I did my master's in creative writing. I was teaching in England. So when I came back to Singapore, I taught here as well.

Joesphine: So, uh, and I'm a mentor to a lot of aspiring writers. So I thought, Yeah, it's time to write a, a, a book on writing because I have so many years of teaching and students are asking questions, Oh, you say so much, I can't remember, put it in a book. So, and I thought, well, okay, I don't want to be like [00:33:00] any other, the famous, create other writers who have written books about writing. Why don't I write from the point of view as a Singapore author? So this title came together, perfect. So anyway, I wrote it, finished the book, gave it to Ethos. And, uh, they called me up. They said, we love your book. We love it. But, so I, I, I heard the but, you know, dot, dot, dot, dot. So I went for a meeting. They said, you were mentioning so many things.

Joesphine: You should actually talk about the personal side. I said, yeah, but I don't want to write any more personal books. I have Frog Under a Coconut Shell, which is a, uh, memoir about my mom and her Alzheimer's. And I respect my mom. Uh, respected her a great deal because she was the one who gave me an education.

Joesphine: Without her, I always think, oh my god, where would I be today, you know? And so I decided to write a book about her. Also, I was living in England when she had Alzheimer's. I was feeling guilty for not being here to take care of her.

Paula: get it.

Joesphine: [00:34:00] So I've that and I've, and I've written a book. two, uh, adult kampong books and a children's kampong book.

Joesphine: So I've written enough about myself. So I said, I don't want to write about myself. So anyway, they kept on badgering me, rewrite this. We think there's a gem there somewhere. The how to part of writing is okay, but not enough. So anyway, I went, I thought about it. Suddenly it occurred to me what this, why the title came to me.

Joesphine: I am Bokalo. Because of the poison. And I thought, oh my god, you know, this poison, uh, is in the, the nut. And yet, oh, crazy, but that's all. Make it into a fantastic dish. It is so delicious. It's really chicken, like, coated with chocolate. And, you know, it's really that kind of taste. 

Rachel: I feel like I need to go and have it.

Joesphine: You must, you must taste it. In the beginning, it's kind of like, oh, okay, it's strong taste. Because it's, but so some people don't [00:35:00] like chocolate. So that's it. And you have dark chocolate, you have milk chocolate, all kind of chocolate. This is like dark chocolate. Heavy taste. But, once you get used to that, it really tastes nice.

Joesphine: So I thought, uh, and yet, you know, this beautiful dish comes about. So, it occurred to me that this is what the, the, the book is supposed to be. So I started. Working on it, just writing, talk about my experiences and then suddenly it all came out like you were saying, it went into the subconscious and brought up the old wounds and stuff about, you know, uh, and abusive.

Joesphine: alcoholic husband, you know, so it's, he's dead now, so it's okay to talk about him.

Paula: it.

Rachel: Did you wish that you'd had, you'd, uh, made him that, that, uh, chicken? Did you wish that you'd made him that? 

Joesphine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, actually I did, because the worst thing about it is it seems so [00:36:00] easy when you talk about this, and this is why eventually what the book morphed into, and I think it's right, because it's Kind of showing to other people who may other women or men who suffer abuse in marriage or whatever To say that, you know, it's not that easy to say you just get out of it.

Joesphine: It's not because the person who's Is a dr. Jekyll. Mr. Hyde situation when he's dr. Jekyll. He's a fantastic

Paula: you just look at that side every time, right? Yeah, I know.

Joesphine: It's not 100 percent straightforward. This is Now my message in this book, but please get out if it is Get to a physical abusive But even mental abuse is Mental and physical.

Joesphine: That's why i'm deaf in this ear. yeah

Paula: Okay.

Joesphine: but yet I could see the the beauty of it. So I think the one of the people who endorsed it said that it's a heartbreaking memoir, I think because [00:37:00] I I Because you I still love him when said, you know, I have to leave And that in fact worse than if you don't love him you Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Joesphine: It makes a lot more complicated. 'cause eventually I, I, I, I might end up paralyzed or something because the Mr. Hyde, whatever he does, he, Dr. Jack won't remember in the morning. Yeah, yeah, that's

Rachel: Someone who need help. Yeah. It's very complicated. Yeah. Did he get help in the end?

Joesphine: He

Rachel: He died in the end. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Rachel: So when

Paula: we buy your book and where can we buy

Joesphine: Uh, it's also already sell it, but if you are going to the Singapore Writers Festival, which starts on Friday till the 17th, and then my book launch is on the 17th. But someone just emailed me and said because she's a foreigner, she can't go. Get into the launch.

Joesphine: I'm not sure of the technicalities of it. Although Eventbrite sells the ticket But I think you've got to go to have a library card or [00:38:00] something. So it makes it difficult

Paula: Ah, okay.

Joesphine: But

Rachel: um, yeah, and it should be on sale From now I think the book just came up hot off the press like two days ago. So we get it from Kino Oh, you should be able to order them.

Rachel: Yeah

Paula: Okay, so anyone that isn't in, you know, isn't in Singapore at the

Paula: They might go on Amazon, yeah, probably. Yeah, yeah, that. We'll put any, uh, links in the show notes for you in case someone wants to, um, for your website and stuff. So, would it be on your website?

Joesphine: Uh, it, it all Or the information will be on your website? Yeah, it should be on my website soon, yeah.

Joesphine: Alright, yeah, I'll have a look and then I'll put it up. I'll find it. I can give you the contact, uh, for Ethos Books and they, they, uh, And they, they, they, they, they, they said they loved it in the second rendering of it. And I, and I, this one I have to give thanks to my, the editor and the publisher because I hadn't intended it to be so intense.

Joesphine: But, and, and then I tried to keep it light. [00:39:00] So I still use the, the, the, the writing and the cooking. As a movement towards, basically towards your own bliss. I say that if you are following your bliss. Joseph Campbell quotation. So if you're following your bliss you that's when you create real happiness within yourself and when you're happy it is the time when you can you are You can help other people and and and uh, you know Give other people happiness if you if you don't have something you can't give it away If you don't have money, you can't give away money.

Joesphine: So if you don't have happiness, you can't give it away Yeah, so I feel you need Everything must start from yourself. If you want the world to change, don't change the outside world. Change yourself.

Paula: Oh, I like that.

Joesphine: And then from there, we move on. So I feel very happy, okay? It doesn't bring in a lot of money, but I'm doing what I love.

Joesphine: And, as I said, the spin off. Help me to live my life. I'm in a small HDB flat and all but [00:40:00] I'm happy. That's important.

Paula: That's the most important

Rachel: Find a job that you love and never work another day in your life. Exactly. I love that

Joesphine: quote.

Joesphine: Yeah,

Paula: I like that

Rachel: quote. And

Joesphine: And the absolute joy in it. The joy, because you're bringing forth, whether you're an artist or, you know, A musician or even a cook, you know, you can create something beautiful for, for people.

Rachel: Yeah.

Paula: And you are, are you still teaching? I'm

Joesphine: doing

Joesphine: any of the Potong Pasir tours anymore. Because the last time I did, after two hours, I had to spend one, two days recovering. Because

Rachel: Oh yeah, that's a lot, that's a lot of pace. I

Joesphine: try to do it early in the morning, like 8. 30 or 9 o'clock when it's still cool. But by the time I finished the round.

Joesphine: I show the various areas. Lots of Potong Pasir, uh, obviously the old places are gone. Even the ponds are gone. They've been filled up. But there's the Alkaff Mosque, which

Joesphine: is, on

Joesphine: the opposite side of the

Joesphine: road

Joesphine: to [00:41:00] Potong Pasir.

Joesphine: So they,

Joesphine: they were like, almost like a community center. In the old days, it was fantastic because whether you are Muslim or non Muslim, you could, you know, you eat from, they would provide food for you and you'd go there and like a

Rachel: community. Is that still the original mosque

Joesphine: the mosque is

Joesphine: mosque still there.

Joesphine: go to the mosque because it's Al Khaf Mosque. It's still, it's been a, now a heritage

Joesphine: uh, place. Okay. Yeah,

Joesphine: We fantastic, yeah. Now you can do tours and all that. They invited me for, only last couple of months ago, for their anniversary, and telling them about how it used

Rachel: to be

Joesphine: when we were in the village.

Joesphine: Because obviously, the village, 90 percent of the time, we're hungry, like now I'm such a pig. Cause my, everybody think I'm such a pig, I eat four or five times a day. I can't, I dare not, not

Rachel: eat. Yeah.

Joesphine: Because I've been so poor before, and there were days when we didn't have food, I can't not eat, so I can't go on a diet.

Joesphine: If I'm fat, okay, I better exercise more.

Paula: to

Rachel: [00:42:00] fat at all. So, I love my food.

Joesphine: So in those days, either the English family would

Rachel: be throwing out food,

Joesphine: and, uh,

Rachel: You get obsessive about it when you're hungry, right? You're just like, oh my god, those cakes, those cakes. I know, I know.

Joesphine: And, uh, especially as they buy, you know, the table is, the buffet table is laden with all these wonderful turkey and sausages and all that, and ham, and I, my Muslim friend, she said, uh, in, in it, uh, in, in it, Brighton book, they were talking about ham rolls.

Joesphine: She said, Finn, what are

Joesphine: ham rolls? It's, you know,

Joesphine: uh, uh, I didn't know, of course. I didn't want to look stupid or sound stupid. So I said, oh, I suppose beef is from beef, uh, Chicken, you know, from chicken. Ham must be from hamsters.

Joesphine: Oh boy. I

Joesphine: don't know where she is now. She would curse me. [00:43:00] She's telling everyone that it's from hamsters.

Joesphine: hamsters.

Joesphine: That's hilarious.

Joesphine: During the breakup in Singapore night, uh, with Malaysia

Joesphine: given

Joesphine: people were given the option to be Malaysians or be Singaporeans, you know. So.

Joesphine: So, unfortunately,

Joesphine: her family, uh, they, they moved to Malay, uh, Malaysia, Malaya, Malaysia, yeah.

Joesphine: So, and in those days, we didn't have the telephone, definitely no mobile phone,

Joesphine: so we, she didn't read or write, so letters would be useless, so So

Joesphine: can imagine her sitting somewhere, hamsters. and she's all her

Joesphine: friends, yeah. She

Rachel: been a rude awakening if she's Muslim and then decided to eat a hamster and then it was actually, you know, so. And so

Paula: how do people get in touch with you to be able, how long is your courses that you do? Like, do you do it on your own? 

Joesphine: No, no, because I don't like the business side of things, I'm very lazy. So I [00:44:00] wait for someone organize So, okay. Essentially there is a, uh, firstly the Singapore Book Council. Mm-Hmm.

Joesphine: they will always get run, uh, courses, uh, that um, uh, put together or something. They say, what topic do I want to, so I just appear. And then there's a, a s station. Yeah. So

Joesphine: Singlid ation have a, a thing called BAW book a writer. Okay. So you can book a writer. for talks and all that. Of course they take a

Rachel: percentage of

Joesphine: the fees and blah.

Joesphine: They negotiate the fees and all that. So I don't have to do anything. I just need to appear and present. If it's in schools, then it's a, it can be either a talk or a workshop or doing actual writing. So I've run courses on how

Rachel: write your memoir

Joesphine: and all that. And the National Library of Singapore. So they, so I've got quite a few organizations who are giving me the work.

Joesphine: So I personally

Rachel: don't have to

Joesphine: Yeah. Sourceful work. Yeah. Um, [00:45:00] and they usually will be on their website. Because

Paula: I would be so

Joesphine: interested in doing one of your

Joesphine: workshops. I

Joesphine: find them, I find you

Joesphine: just so

Joesphine: interesting with so much wealth of knowledge. Yeah. I think, uh, uh,

Joesphine: uh,

Joesphine: A lot of people, I mean, even if they're non-English and they write very well in English, uh, they think that creative writing is the same as when, like you were saying, either blogging or as a

Joesphine: journalist or it's a

Joesphine: different, uh, clientele or readership in a way.

Joesphine: So you have to

Joesphine: approach it in a different way. And language is not just like you. If you see a book and you see all the prints in line, you have to.

Joesphine: to approach

Joesphine: Kind of, make it like, have you seen the children's picture book where you open and the

Joesphine: pictures pop

Joesphine: up? Yeah. That kind of children's book? Yeah. That is what your language must do.

Joesphine: It must pop up when someone is reading it so it's not flat, black words on a page. Yeah, yeah. It's got to pop up in a way that, if I don't [00:46:00] know Australia, you have to give me a sense of what Australia is. Yeah. So sense, uh, sensual. Uh, effects are very important in writing. So because the writing itself can be flat, it's up to you to make it into a pop up book by giving us all the sense, because the smell, say, for example, in something in Perth or Brisbane or Canberra, it's going to be different from Singapore, right?

Joesphine: The sense of sound and smell, those things are very, very important for books.

Rachel: Yeah, creating a creative atmosphere. Correct. Yeah. Wow.

Paula: I used

Paula: I to love encyclopedias and dictionaries when I was

Paula: I was a kid. But anyway,

Paula: was me being crazy. I used to just love words.

Joesphine: I love it when people, if I see anyone on the train, I get so curious.

Joesphine: Yeah, yeah. Also people read on Kindle now. Yeah.

Paula: So is there anything else you'd like to add to today's?

Joesphine: Episode

Rachel: Don't

Paula: No you have been so much fun to get to [00:47:00] know

Rachel: yeah, I've loved

Paula: your Yeah, fantastic. Definitely a storyteller.

Rachel: Yeah,

Paula: Yeah.

Joesphine: I mean,

Joesphine: I, I I still remember, you know, in the, the, the story evenings and people are telling stories like, I'm so engross, I'm a child, and we, we sit out.

Joesphine: outside,

Joesphine: where the yard is, and then we would have kerosene lamps. Of course we didn't have electric lamps. So, uh, kerosene lamps or candles, and we're listening to, you know, wow, fantastic, you know, to this person telling the story and all that. And, uh, like, I think I have a very pictorial mind. Yeah. That helps, because I have pictures in my mind, you see.

Joesphine: Yeah. So when I'm writing a book, I always feel like I'm a cheat, on account of the fact that, you know, I see these pictures in front of me and I just write that down because then I'm not really creating it. You know, it appears to me as pictures. I will write it down. So I feel,

Joesphine: it's not who's

Joesphine: writing it, it's pictures.

Joesphine: Yeah.

Joesphine: it's

Joesphine: It's really fantastic.

Rachel: I actually can't wait to read your new

Joesphine: book.

Paula: [00:48:00] I'm really, yeah, I'm gonna get it. 'cause I really am

Joesphine: interested in reading it. I can give you the name of the publisher. Definitely. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. So,

Rachel: thank you very much.

Rachel: Thank you very much.

Paula: been amazing. Thank you.